Batgirl - Cassandra Cain

Daredevil - Matthew Murdock

Rules

• Earth 616 Daredevil


• Pre-Post Flashpoint Batgirl


• Both start 20 ft away.


• Win by Incap, Ko, Death


• In character but determined the way


• Both have knowledge on each other's abilities and gear

Challenge A Viner Rules:

• Do not start extra arguments or add off topic commentary on the debate


• Your vote should be decided based on the debating quality and abilities of the participants.


• Regular posting/commenting is fine.

Location:

@lanternbatman how is it?

Blind vs mute, this is the battle I've been waiting for

Tag for the first posts, and for voting

Damn for a second I thought this was gonna be Barbara... dissapointed

t4v at the end only.

Tag after every post please

Wasn't there an exact same debate not long ago?

@_kingoflatveria: Looks great!

@the_red_viper: Yes, been done.

Well, hopefully could finish what I never was capable of.

Yeah same. It honestly would've been more fair, and also more interesting given Barb is pretty underrepresented on CV.

Either way, t4v.

T4V

Wut?

T4V. If KoL wins this, either he's one of the greatest debaters of all time, or LB is a terrible debater.

Tag after every post please. You got this @_kingoflatveria.

Well it's not the first so I guess it would have to be the second

@kevd4wg: Really? Between whom? Who won?

@the_badman: No I mean the first of your options isn't possible

@kevd4wg: heh

Barbara would have been interesting, but DD would stomp her tbh. This match-up is certainly closer.

T4V

Don't know why people think Barbara vs DD isn't close, they obviously don't remember this thread

T4v

@kevd4wg: that was a great thread.

Indeed

Or this is much closer than most people who wank Cassie think.

T4V

Damn, dude. I found a new appreciation for Barbara. She can probably beat both the characters being used here by spamming explosives.

Well, I actually forgot about this, so I'll make a quick opener to start us off.

Cassandra Cain

The first and only thing I assume I need to cover is Cassie's most well-known ability: her move-reading. David Cain (as assassin and her father) had experimented with infants, trained them in isolation and deprived them from all human speech for the sole purpose of adapting the language center of the brain to interpret physical movement as a language, body language. Out of all those infants, Cassandra was the only successful one. As explained by Batman, that's why she knows what you're going to do before you do it. Combat is like talking for her; it's something more "unconscious." Scans taken from Batgirl Vol. 1 #1, and here are some scans of her training for additional reference (Batgirl Vol. 1 #1, #9 and #67 respectively). It's questionable if weaving through David Cain's gunfire is actual bullet-timing or not but managing to flat-out stomp David Cain and Bronze Tiger as a <child> and harm them easily is insanely impressive by any skill-standards.

For the record, both Cain and Tiger have several accolades, feats, and showings to their name that I can cite if you inquire about them. They are both established top fighters, managing to dismantle and defeat both, as a child no less, is doubly impressive, and should be enough to establish Cass's skill-tier already.

This ability has stayed with her from childhood to her Batgirl career. So, that's how she got her body-reading but what actually is body-reading, how does it work? Essentially through reading muscle-twitches and all that, but we got an explanation of this from a person who David Cain asked of it. Any complex movement like a hit is preceded by a thousand subtle signs over the body, anyone who reads those signs intuitively can tell what an opponent would do long before he actually did it. I have a few other citations of this I can show if you need any further extrapolation to go on, such as Cass managing to read what her opponent will do with a single glance. But the important item to cover is how much Cassandra's move-reading actually helps her. When a runaway psychic altered Cassandra's mind so that she could understand words, she lost her ability to read body language and thus, her ability to fight properly, due the fact she didn't grow up learning defensive fighting mechanisms, she openly depended on her move-reading for defense. Without her move-reading, Lady Shiva effortlessly danced and <stomped> her in Batgirl Vol. 1 #8:

Next issue during Batgirl Vol. 1 #9, Batman took her in a spar to test how she is without move-reading, train her, and was stomping her. Her only possible option was to keep training, but Bruce told her she would need 10 years to get on his level of fighting skill without move-reading. Cass wasn't gonna accept that, she wanted her move-reading back. So she sought Lady Shiva, a fellow move-reader and her mother, to quickly retrain her, get her back what she lost, for the price of having a death duel a year later. Here are the scans of all that for voter's benefit. After that, she returned to Batman, and <danced> around him in another spar after she regained her move-reading from Shiva..I wouldn't and am not using this to say Cass casually dances around Batman-level characters, Bruce wasn't going all out as he didn't even know she regained her move-reading and was using the same basic moves he did in previous spars, but, again, I'm just extrapolating on her move-reading and how much it benefits the gal.

In the "death-duel." a year later against Shiva, Cass went from getting stomped to actually winning in a long-drawn out hard fight. For the record, Lady Shiva has mastered all fighting styles, went toe-to-toe with and stalemated Batman, destroyed 6 top members of the League Of Assassins including Bronze Tiger, defeated Conner Hawke, and many more showings I can mention and cite if need be. Moreover, she actually has every physical advantage outside of reactionary times. Like, by a solid margin, and I can fully back that up. The fact that Cassandra defeated someone so skilled and who has virtually all physical advantages to boot really highlights the skill her move-reading gives her and just how impressive she is. From Batgirl Vol. 1 #25:

That should suffice. I've delved into Batgirl's training, showings even as a child, move-reading, in-universe standing and her history. That should be enough information for you to go on and for an opener in regards to skill I presume. Regardless, needless to say, I have a lot more showings to use, so it's not limited to this either. I'm going to finish with this for now. Like I said, I want to make a quick post to start this debate. Later on, we'll get into speed and how striking power, more specifically weak/pressure-point striking power for Cass.