Conservation of mass in relativistic collisions?










2












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It's stated in my textbook that relativistic mass is conserved in collisions, even in inelastic ones. So if you have a particle with rest mass $m$ moving with speed $u$ (considerable fraction of the speed of light) in the lab frame and it collides with a stationary particle (as seen in lab frame) also of rest mass $m$ and it is given that the two particles coalesce into a new particle with rest mass $M$ (that moves with speed $v$ in the lab frame), then we can say that:



$gamma(u)m+m=gamma(v)M$



This is pretty much exactly what's written in my textbook. However, this inevitably leads to:



$gamma(u)mc^2+mc^2=gamma(v)Mc^2$



Therefore, this seems to show that the collision is elastic, as no energy is lost.



This has left me very confused, especially since it's shown here as well: http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/info/solutions/inelastic_relativistic_collision_sol_1.pdf



Could someone please help me to make sense of this?










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  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Tip: Leave the confusing concept of relativistic mass and just use $E^2 = m^2 c^4 + p^2 c^2$ where $m$ is the invariant rest mass. In relativistic collisions, 4-momentum $p^mu$ is conserved.
    $endgroup$
    – Avantgarde
    Nov 13 '18 at 19:57










  • $begingroup$
    What's your definition of "elastic" here?
    $endgroup$
    – Brick
    Nov 13 '18 at 20:00















2












$begingroup$


It's stated in my textbook that relativistic mass is conserved in collisions, even in inelastic ones. So if you have a particle with rest mass $m$ moving with speed $u$ (considerable fraction of the speed of light) in the lab frame and it collides with a stationary particle (as seen in lab frame) also of rest mass $m$ and it is given that the two particles coalesce into a new particle with rest mass $M$ (that moves with speed $v$ in the lab frame), then we can say that:



$gamma(u)m+m=gamma(v)M$



This is pretty much exactly what's written in my textbook. However, this inevitably leads to:



$gamma(u)mc^2+mc^2=gamma(v)Mc^2$



Therefore, this seems to show that the collision is elastic, as no energy is lost.



This has left me very confused, especially since it's shown here as well: http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/info/solutions/inelastic_relativistic_collision_sol_1.pdf



Could someone please help me to make sense of this?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Tip: Leave the confusing concept of relativistic mass and just use $E^2 = m^2 c^4 + p^2 c^2$ where $m$ is the invariant rest mass. In relativistic collisions, 4-momentum $p^mu$ is conserved.
    $endgroup$
    – Avantgarde
    Nov 13 '18 at 19:57










  • $begingroup$
    What's your definition of "elastic" here?
    $endgroup$
    – Brick
    Nov 13 '18 at 20:00













2












2








2





$begingroup$


It's stated in my textbook that relativistic mass is conserved in collisions, even in inelastic ones. So if you have a particle with rest mass $m$ moving with speed $u$ (considerable fraction of the speed of light) in the lab frame and it collides with a stationary particle (as seen in lab frame) also of rest mass $m$ and it is given that the two particles coalesce into a new particle with rest mass $M$ (that moves with speed $v$ in the lab frame), then we can say that:



$gamma(u)m+m=gamma(v)M$



This is pretty much exactly what's written in my textbook. However, this inevitably leads to:



$gamma(u)mc^2+mc^2=gamma(v)Mc^2$



Therefore, this seems to show that the collision is elastic, as no energy is lost.



This has left me very confused, especially since it's shown here as well: http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/info/solutions/inelastic_relativistic_collision_sol_1.pdf



Could someone please help me to make sense of this?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




It's stated in my textbook that relativistic mass is conserved in collisions, even in inelastic ones. So if you have a particle with rest mass $m$ moving with speed $u$ (considerable fraction of the speed of light) in the lab frame and it collides with a stationary particle (as seen in lab frame) also of rest mass $m$ and it is given that the two particles coalesce into a new particle with rest mass $M$ (that moves with speed $v$ in the lab frame), then we can say that:



$gamma(u)m+m=gamma(v)M$



This is pretty much exactly what's written in my textbook. However, this inevitably leads to:



$gamma(u)mc^2+mc^2=gamma(v)Mc^2$



Therefore, this seems to show that the collision is elastic, as no energy is lost.



This has left me very confused, especially since it's shown here as well: http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/info/solutions/inelastic_relativistic_collision_sol_1.pdf



Could someone please help me to make sense of this?







special-relativity energy mass momentum conservation-laws






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edited Nov 13 '18 at 20:04









Qmechanic

105k121901202




105k121901202










asked Nov 13 '18 at 19:47









Pancake_SenpaiPancake_Senpai

325312




325312







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Tip: Leave the confusing concept of relativistic mass and just use $E^2 = m^2 c^4 + p^2 c^2$ where $m$ is the invariant rest mass. In relativistic collisions, 4-momentum $p^mu$ is conserved.
    $endgroup$
    – Avantgarde
    Nov 13 '18 at 19:57










  • $begingroup$
    What's your definition of "elastic" here?
    $endgroup$
    – Brick
    Nov 13 '18 at 20:00












  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Tip: Leave the confusing concept of relativistic mass and just use $E^2 = m^2 c^4 + p^2 c^2$ where $m$ is the invariant rest mass. In relativistic collisions, 4-momentum $p^mu$ is conserved.
    $endgroup$
    – Avantgarde
    Nov 13 '18 at 19:57










  • $begingroup$
    What's your definition of "elastic" here?
    $endgroup$
    – Brick
    Nov 13 '18 at 20:00







1




1




$begingroup$
Tip: Leave the confusing concept of relativistic mass and just use $E^2 = m^2 c^4 + p^2 c^2$ where $m$ is the invariant rest mass. In relativistic collisions, 4-momentum $p^mu$ is conserved.
$endgroup$
– Avantgarde
Nov 13 '18 at 19:57




$begingroup$
Tip: Leave the confusing concept of relativistic mass and just use $E^2 = m^2 c^4 + p^2 c^2$ where $m$ is the invariant rest mass. In relativistic collisions, 4-momentum $p^mu$ is conserved.
$endgroup$
– Avantgarde
Nov 13 '18 at 19:57












$begingroup$
What's your definition of "elastic" here?
$endgroup$
– Brick
Nov 13 '18 at 20:00




$begingroup$
What's your definition of "elastic" here?
$endgroup$
– Brick
Nov 13 '18 at 20:00










5 Answers
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active

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$begingroup$

Elastic / inelastic refers not to conservation of energy but conservation of kinetic energy. In this case we have a incident particle with speed $u$ and energy $E$, mass $m$. We also have a stationary particle of mass $m$ and after the collision we will have a single particle of mass $M$. If the rest mass energy changes (i.e. $M neq m$) then the kinetic energy must also have changed because total energy is always conserved.



(In fact in relativity an increase in thermal energy which in Newtonian mechanics would just be described as energy lost to heat will be described as an increase in rest mass.)



To be explicit about your example one can show that the composite particle has mass:



$$M = sqrt2(1+gamma) m > 2m$$



And so the total rest mass energy is increasing, the total energy is constant and thus the kinetic energy has gone down.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$




















    2












    $begingroup$


    It's stated in my textbook that relativistic mass is conserved in
    collisions, even in inelastic ones.




    $letg=gamma$
    It's true simply because relativistic mass is nothing but energy (a
    factor $c^2$ without) and energy is always conserved in SR.



    I would be curious to know how your book defines an inelastic
    collision. I try a guess: a collision in which mass transforms into
    energy or vice versa. I say this because I have seen several books
    proceding this way:



    • defining relativistic mass

    • stating that in an inelastic collision mass converts in energy or
      vice versa.

    I hope you see the contradiction: you can't assert that (relativistic)
    mass is always conserved, and at the same time define an inelastic
    collision as one in which that doesn't happen.



    A correct definition of inelastic collision is as one in which the sum
    of rest (i.e. invariant) masses is not conserved. Your instance would be
    inelastic if $Mne2m$.



    But there is more (and this is why I wrote "would be"). For generic
    values of $m$, $M$, $u$ that process is impossible. The reason is
    momentum conservation. Surely you know that momentum is $p=mg(u)u$.
    Let's write both conservation equations, one after the other:
    $$m,g(u) + m = M,g(v) tag1$$
    $$m,g(u),u = M,g(v),v.$$
    Multiply (1) by $c$, square both equations and subtract. Recalling definition of $g$ after some algebra you will arrive at
    $$2 m^2,[1 + g(u)] = M^2.$$
    So your reaction may only happen if $m$, $u$, $M$ are accurately chosen. If $m$ and $M$ are the masses of two real particles you had to adjust $u$ to an exact value, which is experimentally impossible. The least inaccuracy would mean failure.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$




















      1












      $begingroup$

      I think the non-relativistic definition that

      an "elastic collision" conserves the total kinetic-energy
      can be generalized to the relativistic case by saying that

      an "elastic collision" conserves the "total relativistic KINETIC-energy".



      Note that "total relativistic energy" (being the time-component of the total 4-momentum) is always conserved (since the total 4-momentum is conserved).
      Thus,
      $$gamma_1 m_1 +gamma_2 m_2
      =
      gamma_3 m_3 +gamma_4 m_4 $$

      or (better) in terms of rapidities
      $$m_1 coshtheta_1+m_2 coshtheta_2
      =
      m_3 coshtheta_3+m_4 coshtheta_4$$



      If additionally total relativistic kinetic energy is conserved (an "elastic collision"), then
      $$m_1 (coshtheta_1-1)+m_2 (coshtheta_2-1)
      =
      m_3 (coshtheta_3-1)+m_4 (coshtheta_4-1).$$

      By subtracting, we have
      $$m_1+m_2=m_3+m_4,$$
      which says that total-rest-mass is conserved for an "elastic collision".

      (If $m_3=m_1$ and $m_4=m_2$, then the particles retain their identities after the collision.
      I'm not sure, but maybe this condition is somehow enforced by another condition (maybe having to do with momentum transfers).
      )






      share|cite|improve this answer









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        0












        $begingroup$

        I think M could be thought as a new particle. Since two particle cannot be "stick". There cant be proton-electron but maybe a new particle with their masses.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$




















          0












          $begingroup$

          The word "elastic" is used in different ways in different parts of physics. Sorry, but there it is. In the present example it is being used to refer to collisions where the rest mass of entities does not change. This is different from its usage in Newtonian collision physics where typically it means that kinetic energyis conserved.



          Note that total energy is always conserved, so there is not much point in having a special term to mean "energy-conserving".



          On a separate note, it is widely considered, and it is my opinion, that it does not help our understanding to refer to $gamma m$ as "relativistic mass". Rather, $gamma m c^2$ is energy and $gamma m v$ is momentum and $gamma m$ is not sufficiently important to earn its own name (except that it can and should be called energy when the units are such that $c=1$). It is better to avoid the notion of "conservation of mass"; it only leads to confusion. Better to stick to conservation of energy and conservation of momentum.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            In my answer, I used "elastic" to mean "conservation of total relativistic kinetic energy"... then obtained the "conservation of total rest mass" as a result. So, it seems that one could maintain the association of "elastic" with "total [relativistic] kinetic energy conservation"... unless there is something I've overlooked.
            $endgroup$
            – robphy
            Nov 14 '18 at 2:07










          • $begingroup$
            One can do that, but it has not been found to have wide application in collision processes involving high speeds. There may be processes in which total kinetic energy does not change even though some entity looses rest mass and another gains it, but this would be a coincidence rather than something more interesting. Processes where all entities retain their rest mass, on the other hand, are very common and much studied. The vast majority of scattering processes going on in the universe are elastic in this sense.
            $endgroup$
            – Andrew Steane
            Nov 16 '18 at 10:49










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          5 Answers
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          $begingroup$

          Elastic / inelastic refers not to conservation of energy but conservation of kinetic energy. In this case we have a incident particle with speed $u$ and energy $E$, mass $m$. We also have a stationary particle of mass $m$ and after the collision we will have a single particle of mass $M$. If the rest mass energy changes (i.e. $M neq m$) then the kinetic energy must also have changed because total energy is always conserved.



          (In fact in relativity an increase in thermal energy which in Newtonian mechanics would just be described as energy lost to heat will be described as an increase in rest mass.)



          To be explicit about your example one can show that the composite particle has mass:



          $$M = sqrt2(1+gamma) m > 2m$$



          And so the total rest mass energy is increasing, the total energy is constant and thus the kinetic energy has gone down.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$

















            4












            $begingroup$

            Elastic / inelastic refers not to conservation of energy but conservation of kinetic energy. In this case we have a incident particle with speed $u$ and energy $E$, mass $m$. We also have a stationary particle of mass $m$ and after the collision we will have a single particle of mass $M$. If the rest mass energy changes (i.e. $M neq m$) then the kinetic energy must also have changed because total energy is always conserved.



            (In fact in relativity an increase in thermal energy which in Newtonian mechanics would just be described as energy lost to heat will be described as an increase in rest mass.)



            To be explicit about your example one can show that the composite particle has mass:



            $$M = sqrt2(1+gamma) m > 2m$$



            And so the total rest mass energy is increasing, the total energy is constant and thus the kinetic energy has gone down.






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$















              4












              4








              4





              $begingroup$

              Elastic / inelastic refers not to conservation of energy but conservation of kinetic energy. In this case we have a incident particle with speed $u$ and energy $E$, mass $m$. We also have a stationary particle of mass $m$ and after the collision we will have a single particle of mass $M$. If the rest mass energy changes (i.e. $M neq m$) then the kinetic energy must also have changed because total energy is always conserved.



              (In fact in relativity an increase in thermal energy which in Newtonian mechanics would just be described as energy lost to heat will be described as an increase in rest mass.)



              To be explicit about your example one can show that the composite particle has mass:



              $$M = sqrt2(1+gamma) m > 2m$$



              And so the total rest mass energy is increasing, the total energy is constant and thus the kinetic energy has gone down.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$



              Elastic / inelastic refers not to conservation of energy but conservation of kinetic energy. In this case we have a incident particle with speed $u$ and energy $E$, mass $m$. We also have a stationary particle of mass $m$ and after the collision we will have a single particle of mass $M$. If the rest mass energy changes (i.e. $M neq m$) then the kinetic energy must also have changed because total energy is always conserved.



              (In fact in relativity an increase in thermal energy which in Newtonian mechanics would just be described as energy lost to heat will be described as an increase in rest mass.)



              To be explicit about your example one can show that the composite particle has mass:



              $$M = sqrt2(1+gamma) m > 2m$$



              And so the total rest mass energy is increasing, the total energy is constant and thus the kinetic energy has gone down.







              share|cite|improve this answer












              share|cite|improve this answer



              share|cite|improve this answer










              answered Nov 13 '18 at 20:51









              jacob1729jacob1729

              808414




              808414





















                  2












                  $begingroup$


                  It's stated in my textbook that relativistic mass is conserved in
                  collisions, even in inelastic ones.




                  $letg=gamma$
                  It's true simply because relativistic mass is nothing but energy (a
                  factor $c^2$ without) and energy is always conserved in SR.



                  I would be curious to know how your book defines an inelastic
                  collision. I try a guess: a collision in which mass transforms into
                  energy or vice versa. I say this because I have seen several books
                  proceding this way:



                  • defining relativistic mass

                  • stating that in an inelastic collision mass converts in energy or
                    vice versa.

                  I hope you see the contradiction: you can't assert that (relativistic)
                  mass is always conserved, and at the same time define an inelastic
                  collision as one in which that doesn't happen.



                  A correct definition of inelastic collision is as one in which the sum
                  of rest (i.e. invariant) masses is not conserved. Your instance would be
                  inelastic if $Mne2m$.



                  But there is more (and this is why I wrote "would be"). For generic
                  values of $m$, $M$, $u$ that process is impossible. The reason is
                  momentum conservation. Surely you know that momentum is $p=mg(u)u$.
                  Let's write both conservation equations, one after the other:
                  $$m,g(u) + m = M,g(v) tag1$$
                  $$m,g(u),u = M,g(v),v.$$
                  Multiply (1) by $c$, square both equations and subtract. Recalling definition of $g$ after some algebra you will arrive at
                  $$2 m^2,[1 + g(u)] = M^2.$$
                  So your reaction may only happen if $m$, $u$, $M$ are accurately chosen. If $m$ and $M$ are the masses of two real particles you had to adjust $u$ to an exact value, which is experimentally impossible. The least inaccuracy would mean failure.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$

















                    2












                    $begingroup$


                    It's stated in my textbook that relativistic mass is conserved in
                    collisions, even in inelastic ones.




                    $letg=gamma$
                    It's true simply because relativistic mass is nothing but energy (a
                    factor $c^2$ without) and energy is always conserved in SR.



                    I would be curious to know how your book defines an inelastic
                    collision. I try a guess: a collision in which mass transforms into
                    energy or vice versa. I say this because I have seen several books
                    proceding this way:



                    • defining relativistic mass

                    • stating that in an inelastic collision mass converts in energy or
                      vice versa.

                    I hope you see the contradiction: you can't assert that (relativistic)
                    mass is always conserved, and at the same time define an inelastic
                    collision as one in which that doesn't happen.



                    A correct definition of inelastic collision is as one in which the sum
                    of rest (i.e. invariant) masses is not conserved. Your instance would be
                    inelastic if $Mne2m$.



                    But there is more (and this is why I wrote "would be"). For generic
                    values of $m$, $M$, $u$ that process is impossible. The reason is
                    momentum conservation. Surely you know that momentum is $p=mg(u)u$.
                    Let's write both conservation equations, one after the other:
                    $$m,g(u) + m = M,g(v) tag1$$
                    $$m,g(u),u = M,g(v),v.$$
                    Multiply (1) by $c$, square both equations and subtract. Recalling definition of $g$ after some algebra you will arrive at
                    $$2 m^2,[1 + g(u)] = M^2.$$
                    So your reaction may only happen if $m$, $u$, $M$ are accurately chosen. If $m$ and $M$ are the masses of two real particles you had to adjust $u$ to an exact value, which is experimentally impossible. The least inaccuracy would mean failure.






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$















                      2












                      2








                      2





                      $begingroup$


                      It's stated in my textbook that relativistic mass is conserved in
                      collisions, even in inelastic ones.




                      $letg=gamma$
                      It's true simply because relativistic mass is nothing but energy (a
                      factor $c^2$ without) and energy is always conserved in SR.



                      I would be curious to know how your book defines an inelastic
                      collision. I try a guess: a collision in which mass transforms into
                      energy or vice versa. I say this because I have seen several books
                      proceding this way:



                      • defining relativistic mass

                      • stating that in an inelastic collision mass converts in energy or
                        vice versa.

                      I hope you see the contradiction: you can't assert that (relativistic)
                      mass is always conserved, and at the same time define an inelastic
                      collision as one in which that doesn't happen.



                      A correct definition of inelastic collision is as one in which the sum
                      of rest (i.e. invariant) masses is not conserved. Your instance would be
                      inelastic if $Mne2m$.



                      But there is more (and this is why I wrote "would be"). For generic
                      values of $m$, $M$, $u$ that process is impossible. The reason is
                      momentum conservation. Surely you know that momentum is $p=mg(u)u$.
                      Let's write both conservation equations, one after the other:
                      $$m,g(u) + m = M,g(v) tag1$$
                      $$m,g(u),u = M,g(v),v.$$
                      Multiply (1) by $c$, square both equations and subtract. Recalling definition of $g$ after some algebra you will arrive at
                      $$2 m^2,[1 + g(u)] = M^2.$$
                      So your reaction may only happen if $m$, $u$, $M$ are accurately chosen. If $m$ and $M$ are the masses of two real particles you had to adjust $u$ to an exact value, which is experimentally impossible. The least inaccuracy would mean failure.






                      share|cite|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$




                      It's stated in my textbook that relativistic mass is conserved in
                      collisions, even in inelastic ones.




                      $letg=gamma$
                      It's true simply because relativistic mass is nothing but energy (a
                      factor $c^2$ without) and energy is always conserved in SR.



                      I would be curious to know how your book defines an inelastic
                      collision. I try a guess: a collision in which mass transforms into
                      energy or vice versa. I say this because I have seen several books
                      proceding this way:



                      • defining relativistic mass

                      • stating that in an inelastic collision mass converts in energy or
                        vice versa.

                      I hope you see the contradiction: you can't assert that (relativistic)
                      mass is always conserved, and at the same time define an inelastic
                      collision as one in which that doesn't happen.



                      A correct definition of inelastic collision is as one in which the sum
                      of rest (i.e. invariant) masses is not conserved. Your instance would be
                      inelastic if $Mne2m$.



                      But there is more (and this is why I wrote "would be"). For generic
                      values of $m$, $M$, $u$ that process is impossible. The reason is
                      momentum conservation. Surely you know that momentum is $p=mg(u)u$.
                      Let's write both conservation equations, one after the other:
                      $$m,g(u) + m = M,g(v) tag1$$
                      $$m,g(u),u = M,g(v),v.$$
                      Multiply (1) by $c$, square both equations and subtract. Recalling definition of $g$ after some algebra you will arrive at
                      $$2 m^2,[1 + g(u)] = M^2.$$
                      So your reaction may only happen if $m$, $u$, $M$ are accurately chosen. If $m$ and $M$ are the masses of two real particles you had to adjust $u$ to an exact value, which is experimentally impossible. The least inaccuracy would mean failure.







                      share|cite|improve this answer












                      share|cite|improve this answer



                      share|cite|improve this answer










                      answered Nov 13 '18 at 20:52









                      Elio FabriElio Fabri

                      2,9651212




                      2,9651212





















                          1












                          $begingroup$

                          I think the non-relativistic definition that

                          an "elastic collision" conserves the total kinetic-energy
                          can be generalized to the relativistic case by saying that

                          an "elastic collision" conserves the "total relativistic KINETIC-energy".



                          Note that "total relativistic energy" (being the time-component of the total 4-momentum) is always conserved (since the total 4-momentum is conserved).
                          Thus,
                          $$gamma_1 m_1 +gamma_2 m_2
                          =
                          gamma_3 m_3 +gamma_4 m_4 $$

                          or (better) in terms of rapidities
                          $$m_1 coshtheta_1+m_2 coshtheta_2
                          =
                          m_3 coshtheta_3+m_4 coshtheta_4$$



                          If additionally total relativistic kinetic energy is conserved (an "elastic collision"), then
                          $$m_1 (coshtheta_1-1)+m_2 (coshtheta_2-1)
                          =
                          m_3 (coshtheta_3-1)+m_4 (coshtheta_4-1).$$

                          By subtracting, we have
                          $$m_1+m_2=m_3+m_4,$$
                          which says that total-rest-mass is conserved for an "elastic collision".

                          (If $m_3=m_1$ and $m_4=m_2$, then the particles retain their identities after the collision.
                          I'm not sure, but maybe this condition is somehow enforced by another condition (maybe having to do with momentum transfers).
                          )






                          share|cite|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$

















                            1












                            $begingroup$

                            I think the non-relativistic definition that

                            an "elastic collision" conserves the total kinetic-energy
                            can be generalized to the relativistic case by saying that

                            an "elastic collision" conserves the "total relativistic KINETIC-energy".



                            Note that "total relativistic energy" (being the time-component of the total 4-momentum) is always conserved (since the total 4-momentum is conserved).
                            Thus,
                            $$gamma_1 m_1 +gamma_2 m_2
                            =
                            gamma_3 m_3 +gamma_4 m_4 $$

                            or (better) in terms of rapidities
                            $$m_1 coshtheta_1+m_2 coshtheta_2
                            =
                            m_3 coshtheta_3+m_4 coshtheta_4$$



                            If additionally total relativistic kinetic energy is conserved (an "elastic collision"), then
                            $$m_1 (coshtheta_1-1)+m_2 (coshtheta_2-1)
                            =
                            m_3 (coshtheta_3-1)+m_4 (coshtheta_4-1).$$

                            By subtracting, we have
                            $$m_1+m_2=m_3+m_4,$$
                            which says that total-rest-mass is conserved for an "elastic collision".

                            (If $m_3=m_1$ and $m_4=m_2$, then the particles retain their identities after the collision.
                            I'm not sure, but maybe this condition is somehow enforced by another condition (maybe having to do with momentum transfers).
                            )






                            share|cite|improve this answer









                            $endgroup$















                              1












                              1








                              1





                              $begingroup$

                              I think the non-relativistic definition that

                              an "elastic collision" conserves the total kinetic-energy
                              can be generalized to the relativistic case by saying that

                              an "elastic collision" conserves the "total relativistic KINETIC-energy".



                              Note that "total relativistic energy" (being the time-component of the total 4-momentum) is always conserved (since the total 4-momentum is conserved).
                              Thus,
                              $$gamma_1 m_1 +gamma_2 m_2
                              =
                              gamma_3 m_3 +gamma_4 m_4 $$

                              or (better) in terms of rapidities
                              $$m_1 coshtheta_1+m_2 coshtheta_2
                              =
                              m_3 coshtheta_3+m_4 coshtheta_4$$



                              If additionally total relativistic kinetic energy is conserved (an "elastic collision"), then
                              $$m_1 (coshtheta_1-1)+m_2 (coshtheta_2-1)
                              =
                              m_3 (coshtheta_3-1)+m_4 (coshtheta_4-1).$$

                              By subtracting, we have
                              $$m_1+m_2=m_3+m_4,$$
                              which says that total-rest-mass is conserved for an "elastic collision".

                              (If $m_3=m_1$ and $m_4=m_2$, then the particles retain their identities after the collision.
                              I'm not sure, but maybe this condition is somehow enforced by another condition (maybe having to do with momentum transfers).
                              )






                              share|cite|improve this answer









                              $endgroup$



                              I think the non-relativistic definition that

                              an "elastic collision" conserves the total kinetic-energy
                              can be generalized to the relativistic case by saying that

                              an "elastic collision" conserves the "total relativistic KINETIC-energy".



                              Note that "total relativistic energy" (being the time-component of the total 4-momentum) is always conserved (since the total 4-momentum is conserved).
                              Thus,
                              $$gamma_1 m_1 +gamma_2 m_2
                              =
                              gamma_3 m_3 +gamma_4 m_4 $$

                              or (better) in terms of rapidities
                              $$m_1 coshtheta_1+m_2 coshtheta_2
                              =
                              m_3 coshtheta_3+m_4 coshtheta_4$$



                              If additionally total relativistic kinetic energy is conserved (an "elastic collision"), then
                              $$m_1 (coshtheta_1-1)+m_2 (coshtheta_2-1)
                              =
                              m_3 (coshtheta_3-1)+m_4 (coshtheta_4-1).$$

                              By subtracting, we have
                              $$m_1+m_2=m_3+m_4,$$
                              which says that total-rest-mass is conserved for an "elastic collision".

                              (If $m_3=m_1$ and $m_4=m_2$, then the particles retain their identities after the collision.
                              I'm not sure, but maybe this condition is somehow enforced by another condition (maybe having to do with momentum transfers).
                              )







                              share|cite|improve this answer












                              share|cite|improve this answer



                              share|cite|improve this answer










                              answered Nov 13 '18 at 21:40









                              robphyrobphy

                              2,062238




                              2,062238





















                                  0












                                  $begingroup$

                                  I think M could be thought as a new particle. Since two particle cannot be "stick". There cant be proton-electron but maybe a new particle with their masses.






                                  share|cite|improve this answer









                                  $endgroup$

















                                    0












                                    $begingroup$

                                    I think M could be thought as a new particle. Since two particle cannot be "stick". There cant be proton-electron but maybe a new particle with their masses.






                                    share|cite|improve this answer









                                    $endgroup$















                                      0












                                      0








                                      0





                                      $begingroup$

                                      I think M could be thought as a new particle. Since two particle cannot be "stick". There cant be proton-electron but maybe a new particle with their masses.






                                      share|cite|improve this answer









                                      $endgroup$



                                      I think M could be thought as a new particle. Since two particle cannot be "stick". There cant be proton-electron but maybe a new particle with their masses.







                                      share|cite|improve this answer












                                      share|cite|improve this answer



                                      share|cite|improve this answer










                                      answered Nov 13 '18 at 19:53









                                      ReignReign

                                      692211




                                      692211





















                                          0












                                          $begingroup$

                                          The word "elastic" is used in different ways in different parts of physics. Sorry, but there it is. In the present example it is being used to refer to collisions where the rest mass of entities does not change. This is different from its usage in Newtonian collision physics where typically it means that kinetic energyis conserved.



                                          Note that total energy is always conserved, so there is not much point in having a special term to mean "energy-conserving".



                                          On a separate note, it is widely considered, and it is my opinion, that it does not help our understanding to refer to $gamma m$ as "relativistic mass". Rather, $gamma m c^2$ is energy and $gamma m v$ is momentum and $gamma m$ is not sufficiently important to earn its own name (except that it can and should be called energy when the units are such that $c=1$). It is better to avoid the notion of "conservation of mass"; it only leads to confusion. Better to stick to conservation of energy and conservation of momentum.






                                          share|cite|improve this answer









                                          $endgroup$












                                          • $begingroup$
                                            In my answer, I used "elastic" to mean "conservation of total relativistic kinetic energy"... then obtained the "conservation of total rest mass" as a result. So, it seems that one could maintain the association of "elastic" with "total [relativistic] kinetic energy conservation"... unless there is something I've overlooked.
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – robphy
                                            Nov 14 '18 at 2:07










                                          • $begingroup$
                                            One can do that, but it has not been found to have wide application in collision processes involving high speeds. There may be processes in which total kinetic energy does not change even though some entity looses rest mass and another gains it, but this would be a coincidence rather than something more interesting. Processes where all entities retain their rest mass, on the other hand, are very common and much studied. The vast majority of scattering processes going on in the universe are elastic in this sense.
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – Andrew Steane
                                            Nov 16 '18 at 10:49















                                          0












                                          $begingroup$

                                          The word "elastic" is used in different ways in different parts of physics. Sorry, but there it is. In the present example it is being used to refer to collisions where the rest mass of entities does not change. This is different from its usage in Newtonian collision physics where typically it means that kinetic energyis conserved.



                                          Note that total energy is always conserved, so there is not much point in having a special term to mean "energy-conserving".



                                          On a separate note, it is widely considered, and it is my opinion, that it does not help our understanding to refer to $gamma m$ as "relativistic mass". Rather, $gamma m c^2$ is energy and $gamma m v$ is momentum and $gamma m$ is not sufficiently important to earn its own name (except that it can and should be called energy when the units are such that $c=1$). It is better to avoid the notion of "conservation of mass"; it only leads to confusion. Better to stick to conservation of energy and conservation of momentum.






                                          share|cite|improve this answer









                                          $endgroup$












                                          • $begingroup$
                                            In my answer, I used "elastic" to mean "conservation of total relativistic kinetic energy"... then obtained the "conservation of total rest mass" as a result. So, it seems that one could maintain the association of "elastic" with "total [relativistic] kinetic energy conservation"... unless there is something I've overlooked.
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – robphy
                                            Nov 14 '18 at 2:07










                                          • $begingroup$
                                            One can do that, but it has not been found to have wide application in collision processes involving high speeds. There may be processes in which total kinetic energy does not change even though some entity looses rest mass and another gains it, but this would be a coincidence rather than something more interesting. Processes where all entities retain their rest mass, on the other hand, are very common and much studied. The vast majority of scattering processes going on in the universe are elastic in this sense.
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – Andrew Steane
                                            Nov 16 '18 at 10:49













                                          0












                                          0








                                          0





                                          $begingroup$

                                          The word "elastic" is used in different ways in different parts of physics. Sorry, but there it is. In the present example it is being used to refer to collisions where the rest mass of entities does not change. This is different from its usage in Newtonian collision physics where typically it means that kinetic energyis conserved.



                                          Note that total energy is always conserved, so there is not much point in having a special term to mean "energy-conserving".



                                          On a separate note, it is widely considered, and it is my opinion, that it does not help our understanding to refer to $gamma m$ as "relativistic mass". Rather, $gamma m c^2$ is energy and $gamma m v$ is momentum and $gamma m$ is not sufficiently important to earn its own name (except that it can and should be called energy when the units are such that $c=1$). It is better to avoid the notion of "conservation of mass"; it only leads to confusion. Better to stick to conservation of energy and conservation of momentum.






                                          share|cite|improve this answer









                                          $endgroup$



                                          The word "elastic" is used in different ways in different parts of physics. Sorry, but there it is. In the present example it is being used to refer to collisions where the rest mass of entities does not change. This is different from its usage in Newtonian collision physics where typically it means that kinetic energyis conserved.



                                          Note that total energy is always conserved, so there is not much point in having a special term to mean "energy-conserving".



                                          On a separate note, it is widely considered, and it is my opinion, that it does not help our understanding to refer to $gamma m$ as "relativistic mass". Rather, $gamma m c^2$ is energy and $gamma m v$ is momentum and $gamma m$ is not sufficiently important to earn its own name (except that it can and should be called energy when the units are such that $c=1$). It is better to avoid the notion of "conservation of mass"; it only leads to confusion. Better to stick to conservation of energy and conservation of momentum.







                                          share|cite|improve this answer












                                          share|cite|improve this answer



                                          share|cite|improve this answer










                                          answered Nov 13 '18 at 22:22









                                          Andrew SteaneAndrew Steane

                                          4,998733




                                          4,998733











                                          • $begingroup$
                                            In my answer, I used "elastic" to mean "conservation of total relativistic kinetic energy"... then obtained the "conservation of total rest mass" as a result. So, it seems that one could maintain the association of "elastic" with "total [relativistic] kinetic energy conservation"... unless there is something I've overlooked.
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – robphy
                                            Nov 14 '18 at 2:07










                                          • $begingroup$
                                            One can do that, but it has not been found to have wide application in collision processes involving high speeds. There may be processes in which total kinetic energy does not change even though some entity looses rest mass and another gains it, but this would be a coincidence rather than something more interesting. Processes where all entities retain their rest mass, on the other hand, are very common and much studied. The vast majority of scattering processes going on in the universe are elastic in this sense.
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – Andrew Steane
                                            Nov 16 '18 at 10:49
















                                          • $begingroup$
                                            In my answer, I used "elastic" to mean "conservation of total relativistic kinetic energy"... then obtained the "conservation of total rest mass" as a result. So, it seems that one could maintain the association of "elastic" with "total [relativistic] kinetic energy conservation"... unless there is something I've overlooked.
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – robphy
                                            Nov 14 '18 at 2:07










                                          • $begingroup$
                                            One can do that, but it has not been found to have wide application in collision processes involving high speeds. There may be processes in which total kinetic energy does not change even though some entity looses rest mass and another gains it, but this would be a coincidence rather than something more interesting. Processes where all entities retain their rest mass, on the other hand, are very common and much studied. The vast majority of scattering processes going on in the universe are elastic in this sense.
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – Andrew Steane
                                            Nov 16 '18 at 10:49















                                          $begingroup$
                                          In my answer, I used "elastic" to mean "conservation of total relativistic kinetic energy"... then obtained the "conservation of total rest mass" as a result. So, it seems that one could maintain the association of "elastic" with "total [relativistic] kinetic energy conservation"... unless there is something I've overlooked.
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – robphy
                                          Nov 14 '18 at 2:07




                                          $begingroup$
                                          In my answer, I used "elastic" to mean "conservation of total relativistic kinetic energy"... then obtained the "conservation of total rest mass" as a result. So, it seems that one could maintain the association of "elastic" with "total [relativistic] kinetic energy conservation"... unless there is something I've overlooked.
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – robphy
                                          Nov 14 '18 at 2:07












                                          $begingroup$
                                          One can do that, but it has not been found to have wide application in collision processes involving high speeds. There may be processes in which total kinetic energy does not change even though some entity looses rest mass and another gains it, but this would be a coincidence rather than something more interesting. Processes where all entities retain their rest mass, on the other hand, are very common and much studied. The vast majority of scattering processes going on in the universe are elastic in this sense.
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – Andrew Steane
                                          Nov 16 '18 at 10:49




                                          $begingroup$
                                          One can do that, but it has not been found to have wide application in collision processes involving high speeds. There may be processes in which total kinetic energy does not change even though some entity looses rest mass and another gains it, but this would be a coincidence rather than something more interesting. Processes where all entities retain their rest mass, on the other hand, are very common and much studied. The vast majority of scattering processes going on in the universe are elastic in this sense.
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – Andrew Steane
                                          Nov 16 '18 at 10:49

















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