TV show versions only. Standard gear, to the death.

Who wins and why?

Game of Thrones Callouts:

I'd say Loras.

Tormund for sure. Loras specialized in jousting.

Loras' combat ability was not fleshed out in the TV show at all. All we have is a showing and a statement during the competition.

The Gay one

Loras stated his brother was better with a sword. After what Breiene did to him don't think he can take someone as vicious and dirty as Tormund. Though skilled Loras is more of a style honor tournament type Against a grizzled vet like Tormund don't see it ending well for him

Could go either way.

@destinyman75: Loras doesn’t have a brother in the show.

Loras has been shown casually fodderising knights/men-at-arms in training, he outskilled Brienne, disarming her before being bullrushed, and it's worth considering that this was an unblooded Loras, not sure if that technique would work again, it was also extremely unconventional in a melee setting (an obvious callback to Dunk).

Not sure, I don't see Tormund performing as well against Brienne to be honest, but he does have a very solid victory over Alliser, who showed decent fodder feats.

Probably Tormund. Loras had trouble with extremely aggressive tactics, which is all Tormund is. Alister was a skilled knight who had lots of experience fighting aggressive wildlings and still got stomped.

@lubub55: you sure?? thought the tyrells schemed to marry Sansa to loras's brother??

That was Willas in the books. Loras is the only son and heir in the show. Which is annoying because Garlan is one of my favourite tertiary characters.

Tormund for sure since its TV versions

@rogueshadow: When did Loras fodderize people in training? Was that in the show?

I’d actually say Loras on this one. Neither are extremely impressive feats wise, but Loras holds a pretty distinct gear advantage with full plate.

It's in the background of a couple of scenes, one where Sansa is talking to Margery about wedding him, the other is just before he is arrested.

@rogueshadow: Oh, yeah just watched that. Well I don't see it as adding Loras any virtue tbh, beating other people in training is kinda vanilla. Against Brienne, well her using a flail vs him using an axe is a pretty important factor. Flails are hard weapons to use, axes aren't. Brienne is a swordswoman, give her a sword and I don't see Loras disarming her. Tormund is in my opinion a far better fighter, he was revered by all of the wildlings. Nobody dared intervene when he beat Rattleshirt to death (even Rattleshirt's own people), and Karsi and the other chieftains seemed to have complete trust in him, even Wun Wun. In a society like the wildlings' it is a very fair indication to one's prowess in combat. Even Styr treated him as more or less equal. There's also him defeating Thorne who was fodderizing wildlings and even Jon who hated his guts acknowledged his prowess, and he was the last man standing on the wildlings' side at the battle of Castle Black. His performance against wights both at Hardhome and at the Frozen Lake show he is skilled in unarmed techniques as well, and surviving Ramsay's shield wall is also not a feat that many can claim to have achieved. I don't see Loras beating him.

@the_red_viper: Eh, I don't know if the writers would see it like that, they both chose their weapons there I don't see why they'd choose weapons they were completely unfamiliar with, there was nothing stopping them choosing a sword. And I don't know if I see Tormund performing as well against Brienne under any circumstance. Not to mention, I consider trained nobles/knights considerably higher up the totem pole than any fodder Tormund has downed, and Loras was doing it with extreme ease.

Tormund might win due to ferocity, far more battle-experience and his feat against Aliser, but Loras' superior technical skill, showing against Brienne and the fact he has some actual battle experience himself now make me doubt it would be anything but an extremely hard fight. The Wildlings are less of a warrior culture than the Dothraki, barring the Thenns, you have to be good and brave to earn their respect but the best warrior won't necessarily be their leader. His renown is a good testament to his skills but not evidence he is a God-tier warrior amongst the Wildlings or anything.

Also, I'd say that Styr treating him as an equal was more a matter of rank, given that Tormund was Mance's right hand man.

@rogueshadow: We don't know if they chose their weapons and if they did we don't know what their options were. It seems like swords are prohibited in tourney melees in the show, the Hound used a morning star as well in Joffrey's name day tournament in season 2, as did his unnamed opponent. Loras, Brienne and Sandor are all swordsmen, I see no reason why they'd choose a weapon that isn't a sword unless they had no other choice. And the people Loras was sparring with are unnamed extras, we don't know if they were knights or nobles, could have been simple soldiers/men at arms, maybe sergeants or even captains, but there's nothing to suggest that they are highly-trained highborn.

The Dothraki aren't a factor here so the comparison doesn't mean much, the wildlings are still a society that's largely built on war. Clans and tribes were fighting one another all the time until Mance brought them together and he had to defeat some of their chieftains in combat in order to win them over as well. Even their women are warriors. I think that the utmost respect that wildling chieftains have for Tormund, and the reverence and even fear that many wildlings have of him is a good indication for his worth as a warrior. Rattleshirt's men didn't even dare intervene when he mauled their leader to death right in front of their faces.

As for Styr, he was also a senior lieutenant of Mance, and it's unlike Thenns to treat others as equal. He willingly led the assault on Castle Black alongside Tormund, I don't think it means anything less than considering Tormund an equally good warrior as he himself was.

In my opinion, Loras doing OK against Brienne when using a simpler weapon than she did, and beating unnamed people who may or may not be highborn doesn't compare to outright defeating Alliser Thorne who's proven to be a good fighter himself with little more than minimal difficulty, being the most respected wildling chieftain, and being the last wildling left standing at Castle Black. Also it isn't true that he is unskilled, he has displayed some skill in the Battle of the Bastards as well as against wights in both Hardhome and the Frozen Lake, and at the battle of Castle Black as too. Loras might be a bit more traditionally skilled but Tormund is far more than a brute. The way I see it, he has every advantage over Loras, barring armor.

@the_red_viper:

• There's no reason for swords to be prohibited, they'd just be blunted. They just chose those weapons because they wanted to, and felt they'd be effective. The Hound has been shown using warhammers and morning-stars extremely effectively despite generally favouring a sword, Tormund an axe etc. I don't think it means as much as you do, they've likely been trained in their use for years. If it does, they were both disadvantaged, to the novice the flail may be harder to use, but if skilled in its use, which I'd assume Brienne is since she elected to use it, it would make no difference.


• The heir to Highgarden wouldn't be training against anything less than a trained warrior, they wouldn't even let Jon spar with Joffrey in the books. They were most likely highborn, honestly most likely knights. At the very least I'd say men-at-arms, i.e. well-trained.


• I don't disagree. Tormund is clearly a respected warrior, I said that, I referenced the Dothraki because while the Freefolk are militant, their whole culture isn't based on who the best fighter is. Being the most respected doesn't by default = being the best fighter.


• Or that he has respect for Tormund as a warrior and his status as Mance's second in command, that doesn't imply equal necessarily, that's a reach in my opinion. What this amounts to is that Tormund is clearly a respected warrior amongst the wildlings, which I have never disputed.


• I never said Tormund is unskilled or a brute. I said that I think Loras' technical skill is superior, on account of his years of formal training, his overall depiction as a fairly high-tier warrior + his disarming of Brienne. Tormund overwhelmed Alliser with sheer speed, strength and ferocity rather than pure-skill in my opinion. That's not me saying Tormund is unskilled, but I do not believe he would have the skill to make mockery of highborn in the way Loras did, or disarm Brienne. The fact they were the final two warriors itself speaks to his skill.


• Tormund is stronger, more ferocious and has a victory over a named warrior with decent skills, but Loras has armour, superior technical skill, and his showing against Brienne/in the melee is still impressive.


• I don't draw the same disparity between Brienne with a sword vs Brienne with a flail, especially when neither were using their normal weapon anyway.


• If Tormund were to win this I still can't see it ever being an easy fight for him.

@rogueshadow: I think that Loras is probably more skilled, but Tormund is a lot more brutal and experienced and regularly has to fight on the battlefield for his life, unlike Loras who practices fighting relatively safely. And Tormund is a scary guy.

Loras, by reputation alone he should be above Jon who seems above Tormund

I agree. Tormund is a warrior, Loras is a duelist. I think it would be a decent fight at least.

@rogueshadow:

• The only time I recall Sandor using a weapon that isn't a sword in the show, other than that tourney, is when he used a wood hatchet to kill the few BWB men after they murdered Septon Ray and his parish. He used a warhammer once that I recall in the books but that was just to break down a door, not for fighting. The fact that we never saw swords being used in melees, even by people who use swords as their weapon of choice all the time, is a good indication that swords were excluded in melees or that the competitors were given weapons without the chance to choose. Tormund himself used an axe only at the expedition in S7E6 and it's because they had to improvise weapons out if Dragonglass. They couldn't forge proper swords or sabers, so they had to fashion makeshift axes, spears and daggers with shards of Dragonglass attached to sticks, like cavemen.


• Flails are harder to use and are more unwieldy than axes. Doesn't matter whether Brienne had training with it, it's still harder to use than an axe and it isn't the weapon she uses for actual fighting. If she was as adept with a flail as she is with a sword, she would have used it more often and for actual fighting, especially since it's better than swords against armored opponents. Loras had a weapon advantage in that fight no matter how you look at it.


• I believe Garlan trained against men at arms. And Jon vs Joffrey is a bad comparison, you can't compare Loras to the (extremely arrogant with an even more arrogant mother) heir to the throne, and a man at arms to a bastard which is a symbol of dishonor. One way or another, beating a man at arms in a spar isn't as impressive as easily beating a highly experienced knight, with actual feats, in a real fight. Even if Loras did beat a highborn, it was a fearless one. A highborn with feats > a nameless featless highborn, and an actual fight is > a spar or a tourney melee. Never mind that Tormund also killed Night's Watch men left and right before and after fighting Thorne, and NW rangers should be no less than common men at arms.


• I never said Tormund is the best wildling fighter, only that he wouldn't have gotten as much respect as he did without being at least among the best. I actually think Styr might be better.


• I don't think Tormund falls too far back on the skill department, skill is hard to quantify but we did see him outmaneuvering several NW men including Thorne and using hand to hand moves as well.


• Loras being in the finals is indeed impressive but if the books are any indication, it's mostly because he and several others ganged up on Brienne out of spite.


• I still maintain that, other than armor, Tormund has every advantage, with skill being a possible exception with the gap being too small to make a difference. Tourney and sparring feats aren't as impressive as actual combat feats of which Tormund has plenty and Loras has none. Loras is pretty much a classic example of a "Knight of Summer". Has good skill on-paper but barely battle-tested.


• Never said it would be an easy fight, but I still see Tormund taking a solid majority. 7.5/10 at least in my opinion. I do think that Loras might very well win this match if it were book versions only though.

Tormund.

@rogueshadow: Ah that's right gotcha, forgot that aspect. Yeah Garlan in the book would nearly be a match for Jamie with a sword..Or maybe not even probably

Tormund wins.

Tormund stomp

• He used Gendry's warhammer without missing a beat. I think that's a big leap, it's never been stated or implied that swords are unavailable, it may have simply been an aesthetic choice on the part of the showrunners, there's just no reason for swords to be excluded, it wouldn't make any sense.


• If Brienne is skilled in its use and opted for that weapon, then I fail to see how the flail is a disadvantage due to being unwieldy. A warhammer can also be unwieldy, but in the hands of an expert it is still effective.


• The specifics of the Joffrey/Loras parallel are tangential, my point is that this caste of people do not associate with the lower rungs of society. I doubt Loras has ever even spoken to a commoner. In the south, that tier of the elite don't communicate against non-highborns, let alone fight them.


• Most of the Rangers had already died beyond the wall, those left were builders and stewards for the most part. And I don't think I'd put an average ranger on par with a man-at-arms in pure swordplay anyway.


• I think jumping from Tormund being well liked and respected and therefore saying he's one of their absolute best is just a leap. He's definitely a well-respected warrior, I think that's as far as you can take it.


• I agree with what you're saying, but I feel there's still something to be said for high technical skill and Loras showed a lot of it, it was sparring but the intent was clear imo, he is casually dancing and outperforming well-trained swordsman. Tormund's style is different, he's ferocious, fast and strong, he seeks to overhwelm his opponent and beat them into submission. He isn't unskilled, but he would have a harder time with an armoured opponent with the finesse of Loras, something we've never seen him deal with. Would he even know how plate functions?


• Rhaegar (imo the closest parallel to Loras, book and show) was an untested Knight of Summer, but he still grievously wounded Robert. Tormund is good, but he's not the Hound or Brienne or Robert. His lack of formal training would definitely hold him back in a lot of fights in my opinion. A KoS would lose to your really high-tiers, but I don't think Loras loses to everybody just by virtue of that alone, as I said, there's still something to be said for just having very high skill. He also isn't entirely untested in live-battle.


• It's obviously better to have that combat feat over Alliser, a competent, tried and tested swordsman, but I don't think it sways me that strongly because he was nothing special at the end of the day. I have no real doubt that Loras would have bested him as well tbh.


• I don't doubt Tormund would beat those Loras sparred with either, the difference is stylistic. Tormund would beat them into submission, something I'm not sure he can do to Loras when even Brienne was outskilled and disarmed by him.

@rogueshadow:

• Right, forgot about Gendry's hammer. He only used it against the first couple of eights that reached him though, then he realized that it's useless and ditched it.


• I don't think that swords being excluded is a reach. We've seen that there is such a thing as blunted training swords in the show, and fact remains that they were never used in tournaments, even by people who favor swords. No reason why people wouldn't use swords if they were available.


• I don't think I agree with that. Southern nobles were very close to the commoners, Renly and Margaery for example. Loras being very close to them both makes it plausible that he would be that way too. Garlan was always training with men at arms as well.


• We don't know how many died beyond the Wall and how many Rangers fought at that battle. There were some very adequate fighters there, such as Grenn, and fact remains that they still beat the Wildlings so they had to be at least fairly good. And Tormund was slaying them left and right.


• I don't think there's a single Wildling chieftain who wasn't a good warrior. Both in the show (think Styr and Karsi), and in the books (Styr, Harma, Alfyn, Weeper, etc). The only chieftain I can think of who wasn't any kind of warrior is Varamyr and he's probably deadlier than all other chieftains combined. Mag the Mighty included. Tormund being a chieftain to begin with, and probably the most respected one among the wildlings, is a fair indication at his prowess in my opinion. They aren't Dothraki, but they are still a largely war-oriented mixture of cultures and tribes. Even their women fight, and that's very uncommon at every single other culture in the known world other than the Shield-Maidend of Bear Island and some very vague cultures in Essos and Sothoryos.


• Skill can't be quantified. If you take a professional judoka and a professional karate fighter, neither would necessarily be more skilled than the other and neither style would have an immediate advantage over the other, it's mostly a matter of experience which in this case Tormund has far more of. Tormund and Loras fight very differently so we can't really say who has more skill. Loras surely has more skill in the sense of traditional formal swordplay, but Tormund can still handle a sword well enough, he is faster and stronger, and is more physical. He may very well just suplex Loras into the ground like Brienne did, we've already seen he knows how to use throws and has done that in the show.


• Almost forgot about the flail lol. The thing is that Loras simply had a better weapon. It's easier to make mistakes with a weapon that requires better technique to use, and don't forget that while Brienne probably did have training in several types of weapons, the sword was obviously her favored weapon and she had far less training than Loras, or most highborns fir that matter. While most nobles like Loras train from childhood, Brienne only started officially training when she was well into her teens.


• I dunno about your Rhaegar comparison. First of all, he and Robert were fighting from horseback where Rhaegar was all but peerless. Second, Robert was likely in but such a good shape to begin with. He was already wounded before the Battle of the Bells which took place not long before the Trident. Rhaegar on the other hand was fresh and in peak performance.


• Loras isn't completely unblooded, true. But the only real fight he ever took part in was the Battle of the Blackwater where he took Stannis's army, already weakened, fatigued and demoralized, with a surprise attack from the rear and with superior numbers. He hadn't experienced half the things Tormund had. And I dunno about Alliser, Loras very likely would have beaten him, but it's not certain. Alliser did very well against wildlings, some of which were Thenns, and was actually left untagged until Tormund beat him.


• At the end of the day, Tormund simply has better feats. He beat Alliser which is better than stomping an unnamed opponent who may or may not have been highborn in a spar, and he disarmed Smalljon at the Battle of the Bastards which is better than disarming Brienne in a tourney match while she used an inferior weapon that she most likely had very little experience with, if any at all.


• I feel like we're both thinking that Tormund would win. We both think it won't be easy as well, so we might as well just leave it at that for now.

Okay, cool.