Finally!!!!!

Mantle characters are fine we just need the previous mantle holders to die and retire or well end up with 4 different Flash's and 6 different Batmen all in their 20s.

Marvel is fine with it; we've got two Caps at the same time, Ms. Marvel and Captain Marvel, Two Spiderman (Spidermen?), Two Thors, I am waiting for them to re-do the Fantastic Four so they look like the Burger King Kids Club

@doc-holiday said:

@nightfang3 said:

Mantle characters are fine we just need the previous mantle holders to die and retire or well end up with 4 different Flash's and 6 different Batmen all in their 20s.

Marvel is fine with it; we've got two Caps at the same time, Ms. Marvel and Captain Marvel, Two Spiderman (Spidermen?), Two Thors, I am waiting for them to re-do the Fantastic Four so they look like the Burger King Kids Club

Having two different version of a character is fine, but 4 or 6 all in the same place.

@nightfang3: Well technically there are multiple Captain Marvels, multiple Captain Americas, sometimes they just make the previous guy use his original name rather than his super name.

What they said in the podcast is true though, it's hard to make brand new characters so they just mantle pass, it's lazier and easier.

@doc-holiday said:

That true and at this point the fans are more to blame for the mantle passing than the companies are.

Great podcast! Always look forward to this , especially when you both talk about the rebirth titles . I'm enjoying almost all the titles out right now , with the exception of JL . I was surprised to hear that Green arrow isn't your type of book, Matt. It's definitely my favorite one right now . I am liking the current batman as well. Tom King has yet to disappoint and his writing is always engaging . I didn't mind batman's interaction with Grundy lol I just thought damn , only batman can pull something off like that xD

@kgphil01: Here's a second vote for Quantum and Woody. Definitely over the top and funny.

One man's "lazier, and easier" is another man's "selling comics and making money"..... I'm sure a lot of the writers would rather make brand new non-legacy characters, but Marvel know what sells. The reason why Marvel does all those things we hate is because people buy them... Their best selling comics are events, and new number ones. Everyone complains about those, but someone's buying all those comics...... Don't hate the company when it's the fans fault......

Not all fans :P

I jumped off Marvel a while ago and haven't been back since. Honestly it was the new Old Man Logan which did it for me, I loved the original and was so happy for a sequel series and then they add the time travel garbage and I was out. I wanted to see Old Man Logan with baby Hulk forming a new Avengers but instead we get that terrible story.

I went to Valiant after that and haven't bought a Marvel comic since. I do check back every now and then though.

It's 50/50, it is up to the fans to like the new characters they make but it is up to Marvel to intrigue them enough to want to buy them. Image and Valiant do it, they have new characters all the time; Invincible took the world by storm (in a way), it is great.

I feel that Image and Valiant are a different type of beast too Marvel and DC. I read mostly Image, because I follow the creative teams I like. I feel like a lot of Marvel and DC fans go to their comics not for their talent, but for their characters. Guess that's why people gets so mad when a writer writes something they don't like about Batman....You never hear outrage when so and so dies in Saga.

Maybe, I can't speak for all fans on that point but I do feel that Image and Valiant, being younger and more individual creator driven have advantages. However, I do slightly disagree in someway, I loved the Walking Dead comic but really disliked the show with the portrayal of certain characters and how they were written, especially Andrea.

I may have missed you mention them but,

EMPRESS!~ and RENATO JONES THE ONE% have been awesome!

I can understand why you'd see it that way but personally I see it differently.

Valiant and Image aren't under the same type of financial pressure as Marvel or DC. The bigger the company is the more money it requires in order to function. They don't have the "luxury" to take creative risks at this point. They simply have to do what will definitely make money, end of story. At this point in their lifespan their direction and focus is dictated by market trends and consumer habits, not artistic integrity and fan service.That being said they still have talented people working on their books so you do end up with some great stuff here and there.

Instead of writing them off altogether I find it easier to simply look at them as a different animal than Valiant. And I've always put Image into it's own box because if I'm not mistaken they have a very different business structure.

I'd agree if they didn't continue to push characters like Sam Wilson Cap who gets mediocre sales

Well I'd say that mediocre sales for Marvel are still higher than most publishers would get for a high selling book.

But beyond that I feel like they have a long term plan when it comes to racial diversity that supersedes anything else. I believe they're looking to prove that they have the most appealing/most diverse roster of characters and will grab the attention of A) parents who prefer that their kids look at a more diverse comic book and B) young minorities who will feel like they're being represented properly. In this way Marvel assures itself future success as these impressionable kids grow older and maybe they loved seeing Sam Wilson as Captain America so they follow Marvel for the rest of their lives.

That is a lot of "if" and there is the flaw these characters may not be born of out creativity but rather marketable needs and therefore lack the appeal that other characters have. It is hard to sell new characters, even mantle passes regardless of ethnicity or gender because people are used to characters as they are. It's why Image, Valiant and others have the advantage of being smaller and being able to make characters of great variety with less chance of upsetting readers because only a few characters are expected to be a certain way and even then, some are minorities, like Spawn. No one seems to remember that the poster-boy for all of Image is also one of the most famous black super heroes ever, largely because Image rarely makes it an issue, except in like issue #5 where Spawn learns he can transform and accidentally makes himself a white guy :P

Some characters have been met with a lot of push-back because the thought of replacing a classic character bothers readers (and that is readers of all types, I've seen numerous comments from non-white readers saying they would prefer new characters over the diversi-swaps).

I see your point of course, that Marvel is hoping for the long term and even has the benefit of the fact that if the characters fail they can reprise the originals but it comes off even lazier than before when you realize all this.

Everything is a complete IF statement since we're both speculating. That's the fun of speculation, no one is wrong because you can't know if you're right.

But anyway, you've already done the right thing. Drop what you don't like and find what you do like. But I guarantee if decades from now Valiant becomes the same juggernaut that Marvel is we'll all be having the same discussions about them.

@d9000: awesome thanks for the recommendations!! Will have to check those out! I ended up picking up the first volume of deadly class & hack slash I know there not funny but they seemed to be the crazy kind of stories I'm looking for!

@kgphil01: Nice! Now I'm jealous :p

Ahh I've been wanting a ComicVine / Kinda Funny crossover for ages!