Although Black Panther has had numerous showings of dodging gunfire, it's hard to paint him as an actual bullet-timer. In spite of that, he's evaded things that move faster than bullets.

Bullet-timing is overrated, anyway. While it looks cool, it means nothing when talking about actual combat speed in a physical confrontation against another character. Black Panther hasn't had a problem tagging bullet-timers (four of the them come to mind).

@static_shock: Although Black Panther has had numerous showings of dodging gunfire, it's hard to paint him as an actual bullet-timer. In spite of that, he's evaded things that move faster than bullets.

I'm curious as to what these faster-than-bullets projectiles(?) actually are and whether he just evaded or genuinely timed them. In comparison, even Rose was able to perceive then react to Superman who was moving fast enough to outrun explosions.

Bullet-timing is overrated, anyway. While it looks cool, it means nothing when talking about actual combat speed in a physical confrontation against another character. Black Panther hasn't had a problem tagging bullet-timers (four of the them come to mind).

While I agree that bullet-timing is somewhat overrated, especially in the way it's been used in this thread, I wouldn't say it means nothing in regard to combat speed. It speaks to pure reflexes which most definitely has its applications in physical confrontations against other characters. This is explicitly the case concerning Deathstroke. Among other things, he's been shown to humiliate Cassandra Cain and Geo-Force when they were both hell-bent on killing him primarily through reaction time.

@static_shock:

Although Black Panther has had numerous showings of dodging gunfire, it's hard to paint him as an actual bullet-timer.

No, he doesn't. I've only seen one bullet-timing showing from him. The others are just aim-dodging or out of context. Excuse me if I'm missing any, show me his bullet timing feats if I am.

In spite of that, he's evaded things that move faster than bullets.

Like what, Cap's shield throws? I doubt Cap would be throwing the shield at supersonic speeds against a friend unless I'm missing context here..

Bullet-timing is overrated, anyway. While it looks cool, it means nothing when talking about actual combat speed in a physical confrontation against another character. Black Panther hasn't had a problem tagging bullet-timers (four of the them come to mind).

And when did I contest to any of that? I was talking about bullet-timing in relevance to reactions. If the Black Panther has other feats on par with or better than bullet-timing, just not dodging bullets, please show me.

@elijah_c_washington said:

@static_shock: Although Black Panther has had numerous showings of dodging gunfire, it's hard to paint him as an actual bullet-timer. In spite of that, he's evaded things that move faster than bullets.

I'm curious as to what these faster-than-bullets projectiles(?) actually are and whether he just evaded or genuinely timed them. In comparison, even Rose was able to perceive then react to Superman who was moving fast enough to outrun explosions at the time.

Bullet-timing is overrated, anyway. While it looks cool, it means nothing when talking about actual combat speed in a physical confrontation against another character. Black Panther hasn't had a problem tagging bullet-timers (four of the them come to mind).

While I agree with bullet-timing being overrated, especially in the way it's been used in this thread, I wouldn't say it means nothing in regard to combat speed. It speaks to raw reaction time which most definitely has its applications in physical confrontations against other characters. This is explicitly the case as it concerns Deathstroke. Among other things, he's been shown to humiliate Cassandra Cain and Geo-Force when they were both hell-bent on killing him somewhat due to skill but mainly through reaction time.

If you're referring to me, I'm not using it as the be-all-end-all of reactionary times. If Panther has other feats on par with or better than dodging bullets, I'll welcome them. It's just he doesn't (as far as I'm aware), which is why my argument was centered around bullet-timing.

@lanternbatman: There are a few things I disagree with in your posts. I had an issue with your bullet-timing argument specifically because that was the only argument you made to say that Slade is definitely considerably above Panther in their respective reaction times. I also wouldn't agree with Black Canary being a legitimate bullet-timer on the same grounds you seemed to have implied T'Challa isn't: she's only done it once. If you're arguing that Slade blitzes bullet-timers with showings from Identity Crisis, running up to Zatanna and hitting her in the gut with a pressure point before she could finish pronouncing the letter 'f' is far more impressive. Unlike Canary, I'd say she's consistently above most peak humans in raw reflexes.

Furthermore, I wouldn't say he ever actually blitzed Batman or Bronze Tiger rather than just getting the better of them in hand-to-hand. Speed is still involved but it wasn't a straight-up blitz like in his feat against Ollie and Canary at the same time. His best feat against either of them would probably be recently when he stabbed Bruce so swiftly that he didn't even feel the knife go in while he himself was only seconds away from fully slipping into unconsciousness. Even Katana never hit him that fast.

I do however agree that Deathstroke is likely above Black Panther in combat speed and reflexes since he has much better standalone feats to his name and more than matches T'Challa in scaling, especially when taking consistency into account. I just don't consider the gap as being really wide to the point that it's enough to make too big of a difference under most circumstances, including these. There is no clear winner between the two of them unless you give Panther significantly more gear.

Hmm yeah I think Spidey solos this.

@elijah_c_washington:

There are a few things I disagree with in your posts. I had an issue with your bullet-timing argument specifically because that was the only argument you made to say that Slade is definitely considerably above Panther in their respective reaction times.

He has other showings, but I don't see the issue. It's not like I was saying "if Panther hasn't bullet-timed as good, his reactions are automatically shit in comparison." If he were to mention other showings, I'd as well. It seems you disagree with the way the argument of Slade having better reactions is presented rather than the bullet-timing argument in itself.

I also wouldn't agree with Black Canary being a legitimate bullet-timer on the same grounds you seemed to have implied T'Challa isn't: she's only done it once.

That wasn't my argument though....I can buy him being a bullet-timer even if he did it a single time. I just don't think managing to bullet-time once means you can consistently dodge gunfire all the time like Slade does. Bullet-timers have been tagged with bullets before. I'd also think Slade being a far more consistent bullet-timer would give him a bit more validity.

If you're arguing that Slade blitzes bullet-timers with showings from Identity Crisis

I sort of didn't, I used the showings from Green Arrow Vol. 3 #75, Deathstroke Vol. 3 #2, and Deathstroke: The Terminator #7.

Furthermore, I wouldn't say he ever actually blitzed Batman or Bronze Tiger rather than just getting the better of them in hand-to-hand. Speed is still involved but it wasn't a straight-up blitz like in his feat against Ollie and Canary at the same time.

You would need the speed to utilize that skill in the first place though, regardless I realize they aren't speed feats in their entirety. That doesn't completely negate the impressiveness of the feats, especially when I use those feats when my opponent uses feats that have some part in skill as well.

His best feat against either of them would probably be recently when he stabbed Bruce so swiftly that he didn't even feel the knife go in while he himself was only seconds away from fully slipping into unconsciousness. Even Katana never hit him that fast.

I honestly don't think that makes much sense. A knife going in will be felt, the speed of the person doesn't really matter for feeling it.

I just don't consider the gap as being really wide to the point that it's enough to make too big of a difference under most circumstances, including these. There is no clear winner between the two of them unless you give Panther significantly more gear.

My first response to Deathstroke having better physicals was when Kev stated Slade might be a weak-link. I failed to see why so given he has a weapon that can circumvent Panther's durability and, in my opinion, better overall physicals. My statement had nothing to do with who would win, just if Deathstroke is a weak-link or not.

@elijah_c_washington: Also doesn't the battle computer have limits?

I don't see why Spidey wouldn't be able to outskill Midnighter

@lanternbatman He has other showings, but I don't see the issue. It's not like I was saying "if Panther hasn't bullet-timed as good, his reactions are automatically shit in comparison." If he were to mention other showings, I'd as well. It seems you disagree with the way the argument of Slade having better reactions is presented rather than the bullet-timing argument in itself.

OK.

That wasn't my argument though....I can buy him being a bullet-timer even if he did it a single time. I just don't think managing to bullet-time once means you can consistently dodge gunfire all the time. Bullet-timers have been tagged with bullets before. I'd also think Slade being a far more consistent bullet-timer would give him a bit more validity.

I'm aware it wasn't stated directly but you did go as far to bold it, hence my ambiguous wording of "seemed to have implied." I clarified that this is the issue I personally have with your usage of his feats against Canary, and this does not address that.

I sort of didn't, I used the showings from Green Arrow Vol. 3 #75, Deathstroke Vol. 3 #2, and Deathstroke: The Terminator #7.

My mistake. What I said still applies though. Bronze Tiger showing was from #3 by the way.

You would need the speed to utilize that skill in the first place though, regardless I realize they aren't speed feats in their entirety. That doesn't completely negate the impressiveness of the feats, especially when I use those feats when my opponent uses feats that have some part in skill as well.

I never said these feats were unimpressive and I even admitted speed was involved; I was only saying they weren't straight-up blitzes as you labeled them. More than skill, his strength contributed to why they could not react.

I honestly don't think that makes much sense. A knife going in will be felt, the speed of the person doesn't really matter for feeling it.

Agree to disagree. There is a process to how we end up sensing pain and it takes a short amount of time. I'm suggesting Slade beat that on Batman which Katana didn't under more favorable circumstances earlier this year. Just a neat comparison.

My first response to Deathstroke having better physicals was when Kev stated Slade might be a weak-link. I failed to see why so given he has a weapon that can circumvent Panther's durability and, in my opinion, better overall physicals. My statement had nothing to do with who would win, just if Deathstroke is a weak-link or not.

OK.

@michaelfnshotz: The battle computer is a very unique form of precognition which is why it's generally hard to argue against. The only people having really countered it so far were Prometheus using specifically designed tech that blinded all of his enhancements as well as Afterthought who is constantly looking through a window five seconds into the future. Neither are really applicable to Spider-Man since Prometheus is smarter than him and had significant prep time and Afterthought doesn't just anticipate what's about to happen in the way that spider sense does but instead literally sees the future at all times. Afterthought is the same guy who managed to steamroll Lobo in hand-to-hand.

@elijah_c_washington:

I clarified that this is the issue I personally have with your usage of his feats against Canary, and this does not address that.

So you're saying the argument of not having bullet-timing reactions all the time should apply with Canary as well? The thing is, there was a decent distance between them (ergo giving her more time to react than her bullet-timing feat), and all she needed to do was, for the most part, a jaw movement (Canary Cry). Given the distance, and the fact she needs to accomplish a movement as simple as that, it seems more likely to me her (low level) bullet timing reactions should have been enough to react to Slade, but of course, he was too fast.

I never said these feats were unimpressive and I even admitted speed was involved; I was only saying they weren't straight-up blitzes as you labeled them. More than skill, his strength contributed to why they could not react.

His showings against Bronze Tiger and Bruce are admittedly less impressive due to these factors, which is why I favor the showing against Dinah and Ollie instead. Regardless, it is not by any significant gap that I wouldn't call them blitzes, at least in relevance to what my opponent was trying to sell. "Blitzing" Karnak is well and good, but the amounts of hits Slade managed to tag Batman and Bronze Tiger are much more numerable and consistent. Granted, I did say they were blitzes and they are by my definition. Both opponents needed a good beating to take them out (as especially noted against Tiger), and actually recovered quickly from singular strikes; I don't believe they'd be so dazed from a strike or two that they wouldn't be able to react to the rest, Slade still hit them a considerable amount of times before they could react.

I'm suggesting Slade beat that on Batman which Katana didn't under more favorable circumstances earlier this year.

Fair enough.

@lanternbatman: Ah. Eh, wouldn't if you master most martial arts it'd be irrelevant since you'll kinda seed most shit coming?

Regardless of what the possible outcome could be, there are only a finite amount of ways to move the body let alone in an offensive way.

Any motion he himself makes does basically the same thing on a lesser scale to any other combatant. That’s how you train in most martial arts and why they give you forms to memorize.

@elijah_c_washington:

Ah. Eh, wouldn't if you master most martial arts it'd be irrelevant since you'll kinda seed most shit coming?

Regardless of what the possible outcome could be, there are only a finite amount of ways to move the body let alone in an offensive way.

Any motion he himself makes does basically the same thing on a lesser scale to any other combatant. That’s how you train in most martial arts and why they give you forms to memorize.

@lanternbatman: So you're saying the argument of not having bullet-timing reactions all the time should apply with Canary as well? The thing is, there was a decent distance between them (ergo giving her more time to react than her bullet-timing feat), and all she needed to do was, for the most part, a jaw movement (Canary Cry). Given the distance, and the fact she needs to accomplish a movement as simple as that, it seems more likely to me her (low level) bullet timing reactions should have been enough to react to Slade, but of course, he was too fast.

Black Canary's feat from Bloodspell was an obvious high-end; she doesn't have any other feats on that level. Aside from that, she honestly has worse speed feats than Oliver does. Zatanna, like I mentioned, would've made a much better example to use to make your point, and for that matter so would've Slade outreacting Cassandra and Hawkman in Titans East and Identity Crisis respectively due to their speed feats being more impressive and more consistent than Dinah's by a wide margin.

His showings against Bronze Tiger and Bruce are admittedly less impressive due to these factors, which is why I favor the showing against Dinah and Ollie instead. Regardless, it is not by any significant gap that I wouldn't call them blitzes, at least in relevance to what my opponent was trying to sell. "Blitzing" Karnak is well and good, but the amounts of hits Slade managed to tag Batman and Bronze Tiger are much more numerable and consistent. Granted, I did say they were blitzes and they are by my definition. Both opponents needed a good beating to take them out (as especially noted against Tiger), and actually recovered quickly from singular strikes; I don't believe they'd be so dazed from a strike or two that they wouldn't be able to react to the rest, Slade still hit them a considerable amount of times before they could react.

We can agree to have different definitions of a blitz. I took issue with some of Jay's feats as well, but my problem with the Karnak showing was more to do with him being a notorious jobber. You already noted the damage Slade delt Bruce within three hits so I don't see how he wouldn't have been severely damaged as to the point where he'd have been unable to react to the strikes he ended up taking. Post-Flashpoint Bronze Tiger, on the other hand, doesn't have any impressive durability feats to his name. Moreover, he only defeated Batman in a spar under Tom King who we all know can be very, very inconsistent with power levels. Benjamin has pretty much always been comparable to Batman in speed and skill regardless, though.

@elijah_c_washington:

Black Canary's feat from Bloodspell was an obvious high-end; she doesn't have any other feats on that level. Aside from that, she honestly has worse speed feats than Olie does. Zatanna, like I said, would've made a much stronger example to use to make your point,

I don't disagree; I'm criticizing Panther's bullet timing feat partly based on that. I just believe the distance and the simple movement she needed to do makes it a bullet-timer blitzing feat. (Unless you're saying it's a complete outlier rather than just on the high-end?)

and for that matter so would've him out-reacting Cassandra

When did he out-react her? During the fight in Teen Titans Vol. 3 #46 where he basically humiliated the Titans? Regardless I'm referring to combat speed, not reactionary times.

and Hawkman in Titans East and Identity Crisis respectively due to their own speed feats being more impressive and more consistent than Dinah's by a large margin.

I don't really count that as a blitzing feat. Carter was ready for the attack and seemed to be able to react; it's just Slade's move was completely unexpected. It is more of a tactical showing then a speed showing.

We can agree to have different definitions of a blitz. I took issue with some of Jay's feats as well, but my problem with the Karnak showing was more to do with him being a notorious jobber.

Alright.

You already noted the damage Slade delt Bruce within three hits so I don't see how he wouldn't have been severely damaged as to the point where he'd have been unable to react to the strikes he ended up taking.

The fights they had in Deathstroke: The Terminator #7 and 'Tec #710 are inconsistent (which is amusing that Wolfman had Batman give Deathstroke a much closer fight.) Deathstroke pretty much dealt with Bruce in 3 hits during #710. In sharp contrast Deathstroke needed a far larger beating to actually put down Batman in Deathstroke #7, and Bruce actually recovered from singular strikes far more quickly. I'm not cherry-picking instances to suit my arguments, I'm using the context we seemed to get from the fight in Deathstroke #7.

Post-Flashpoint Bronze Tiger, on the other hand, doesn't have any impressive durability feats to his name.

When did I say he did? All I did say was that Deathstroke noted/implied he needed a good beating to be put down, plus that Tiger recovered from singular strikes relatively quickly, like this for example.

Moreover, he only defeated Batman in a spar under Tom King who we all know can be very, very, very inconsistent with power levels. Benjamin has always been comparable to Bruce in speed and skill regardless, however.

He was only really inconsistent with his characters in the Batman run due to plot (not that all the inconsistencies are excusable in the slightest.) Against Tiger, the spar seemed to be for the purpose of introducing his character, and level. I don't think you can chalk it up to invalid due to the other inconsistencies, especially considering I don't recall anything about Tiger being inconsistent under King.

You should re-read my post. I didn't say he was a bullet-timer. I said that it's hard to paint him as a bullet-timer (mainly due to the context of his showings vs. gunfire). Aim dodging, to me, is synonymous with dodging gunfire (which is what he does). You're saying the same shit I said.

Lightning bolts from Storm and on more than one occasion, lasers.

You could have asked for clarity instead of being condescending.

*cough*Cap's-shield-throws*cough*

See, here's the problem. You literally read my post to respond, rather than read it to understand. I didn't say he was a bullet-timer. Reading comprehension is golden.

All I'm saying is whether or not Black Panther can time bullets doesn't really matter if he can (and has) hit bullet-timers before. That's literally the point. He's not gonna have a problem with that in this fight. So, Deathstroke being a bullet-timer doesn't mean anything, as it isn't relevant to combat speed. Spider-Man is a bullet-timer too. Black Panther tagged him without much effort

He's dodged lightning bolts from Storm and lasers.

It's overrated because bullet-timers still get hit by physical attacks, which are much slower than bullets. A lot of times, these bullet-timers get hit by characters that don't or have never shown to time bullets. That said, bullet-timing and combat speed don't belong in the same argument.

Spider-Man has been bullet-timing his whole career. Black Panther knocked him out of the air with ease, and Spider-Man couldn't time that. Iron Fist has caught bullets on more than one occasion. Black Panther landed multiple hits on him when they fought (and Black Panther wasn't even going all out). Karnak, too (even though his bullet-timing abilities were basically a retcon, still, it's retroactive). Daredevil, also. He parries bullets with his billy clubs. Yet, when he fought Panther, he was unable to evade his strikes.

@elijah_c_washington: It’s true that Midknighter beat Dick into the ground when he actually tried. But that’s also just saying he can mess up a non-meta human. even Danny who's inferior to Spidey has significantly better stats than Dick does, so that’s mostly not applicable.

@static_shock: Sorry for the late reply mate.

You should re-read my post. I didn't say he was a bullet-timer. I said that it's hard to paint him as a bullet-timer (mainly due to the context of his showings vs. gunfire). Aim dodging, to me, is synonymous with dodging gunfire (which is what he does). You're saying the same shit I said.

And I never said you stated he was a bullet-timer, I was asking for bullet-timing showings for myself. Reading comprehension is golden. If you meant to say he aim-dodges but doesn't actually bullet-time, then apologies for misunderstanding, but "dodging gunfire." sounded like actual bullet-timing to me.

Lightning bolts from Storm and on more than one occasion, lasers.

Before I go on, do you mean he aim-evaded them or actually timed/dodged them after they were shot?

You could have asked for clarity instead of being condescending.

I sort of did with "Like what?" and assumed one of those would be Cap's shield throws (which turned out true), then responded preemptively to that specific instance. If you weren't referring to that, I would assume you just would say so. Reading comprehension is golden my man.

See, here's the problem. You literally read my post to respond, rather than read it to understand. I didn't say he was a bullet-timer.

You said he evaded things faster than bullets. If you meant aim-dodging, you should have clarified, because while I think "evaded" should be used for aim dodging, I've seen evaded and dodging both be used for legit timing, and generally, I think "dodging gunfire" would be legit timing. Regardless, apologies if I was being unnecessarily condescending, it was not my intention. We seem to have gotten off on the wrong turn.

All I'm saying is whether or not Black Panther can time bullets doesn't really matter if he can (and has) hit bullet-timers before. That's literally the point. He's not gonna have a problem with that in this fight. So, Deathstroke being a bullet-timer doesn't mean anything, as it isn't relevant to combat speed. Spider-Man is a bullet-timer too. Black Panther tagged him without much effort.

I think you're underestimating the role of reactionary times/reflexes in battles a bit, at least in Slade's case. Side-stepping Wally West, managing to stop a surprise blitz from Impulse, reacting to bullrushes from Beast Boy and Starfire, reacting to and catching blows from Nightwing and Batman, etc. Slade's reflexes aren't just useful for dodging projectiles, they're actively used against characters (and, by the way, those Flashes were only supersonic at the time, for sake of clarification), While I wouldn't say that means he can evade every attack from Panther, it's certainly a factor. All I'm saying is, reflexes play a main role in fights, especially in Slade's case.

If it was bullet-timing, I'd say bullet-timing. But, I didn't. So, nah.

He dodged them. Take it how you wanna take it.

I'm not underestimating anything. I don't doubt his reaction time, but I wouldn't put bullet-timing in the same argument with combat speed in a physical fight. Everything you have listed here doesn't change the fact that Deathstroke can and has been hit with physical blows in combat before by notable street level characters on more than one occasion. If you disagree, that's fine. Black Panther tags him without much trouble.

Or.... you could have just said, "Like what?" and left it there instead of making assumptions.

Team 1 in a good fight.

@static_shock:

If it was bullet-timing, I'd say bullet-timing. But, I didn't. So, nah.

Alright then. Generally when people say dodging gunfire they refer to bullet-timing, so I misunderstood you.

He dodged them. Take it how you wanna take it.

Well, if there wasn't any clear-indication he dodged, I wouldn't say they are legit instances of timing.

I'm not underestimating anything. I don't doubt his reaction time,

Never said you did, I stated you underestimate the role of reactionary times in battles, not the impressiveness of Slade's reflexes.

but I wouldn't put bullet-timing in the same argument with combat speed in a physical fight. Everything you have listed here doesn't change the fact that Deathstroke can and has been hit with physical blows in combat before by notable street level characters on more than one occasion. If you disagree, that's fine. Black Panther tags him without much trouble.

No one is saying Deathstroke will evade every single blow from Panther. He can be hit by Panther. I just see Slade's reflexes helping him to evade many of Panther's attacks due to previously outlined reasons, including the fact that he has evaded attacks from characters and not just projectiles due to his raw reactionary times. I've already stated Deathstroke won't evade everything due to his reaction times in my previous post. However, he can still dodge and evade several attacks.

Or.... you could have just said, "Like what?" and left it there instead of making assumptions.

I preferred to make a preemptive counter. Not sure what's annoying you so much when you could have simply said "No, I was thinking of other instances. " or something to that effect. Nothing to get riled over.