Battle of the Week Results!

Last week we had a marvel street level battle between Gorgon and Spider-man. More than half of you voted for Spider-man to win the fight giving him the majority in votes. Let's take a look at some of the weeks best arguments.

Arguments of the Week

@kevd4wg

Current Gorgon is a massive Jobber and would probably lose to Aunt May, but assuming this is prime Gorgon I think he can win for a few reasons.

Speed

I think that Gorgon and Spider-Man are pretty close in speed, but Gorgon probably has better use of his speed in combat. Gorgon‘s feat of reacting to Yo-yo, a supersonic speedster, and cutting her arm off before she could react in Secret Warriors 4 to me demonstrates what he can do to Spidey. I think his skill gives him an advantage along with speed as it can allow him to basically be faster then Spidey even if they have the same stats.

Gear

Gorgons sword basically means that as long as he can get a good hit on spidey he can oneshots him. While spidey has spider sense I think that is off set by Gorgons telepathy that he used in Wolverine vol 3 30 to stomp elektra. While webs can be helpful they have been cut by Taskmaster mid air so Gorgon can do the same thing especially since Gorgon has better speed feats then Taskmaster.

Morals

Both fighters are in character which initially gives a huge advantage to Gorgon as he will be going for the kill basically immediately whereas Peter will be hold back to a degree. Adding on Gorgons skill, speed, TP, and one shot weapon I see it very likely that’s he kills Peter before Peter gets serious. Furthermore Gorgons ability to turn people to stone should work on Peter as well and is likely something Peter would not suspect which could lead to his death.

I could elaborate on Gorgons healing factor and pain tolerance as to why he can take hits from Spidey but I think ive shown the main reasons he wins already.

@lanternbatman

I think Prime Gorgon under Millar/Hickman has everything needed to win this in a close-fight. Speed-wise, he's quicker by a bit overall. Back in Enemy Of The State, Tomi already established that he's a beyond casual bullet-timer with feats such as consistently deflecting gunfire from SHIELD Agents, and even going so far as pulling a full 360 and swinging his sword around fast enough to deflect machine gunfire back at some SHIELD Agents. Normally I honestly think dodging bullets>deflecting and blocking bullets, but that's in the case of a singular bullet. Here, Tomi deflected a bullet then needed to move his sword fast enough to deflect the other bullets when they were <inches> from him, in dodging you need to move your whole body which is harder to do than just your arms, but the distance difference here is astronomical. I'd say they're pretty close in regards to reactions.

Then there is that Yo-yo supersonic showing, which shows more control and precision in combat with your reaction times than anything I've seen from Peter:

As for combat speed, it's a bit harder to determine that given Gorgon doesn't have many quantifiable feats, but we do know Tomi is consistently capable of dancing around and completely and utterly blitzing bullet-timers like they're slow. These bullet-timers include Elektra, this gal can deflect machine gunfire with her Sais at faster-than-eyesight speeds and even kick a sniper bullet out of the air. That didn't help her any against Gorgon. You can even see Tomi blitz and one-shot her as well as Wolverine at the same time in a short-burst after being impaled clean through by swords and certain adamantium claws, in addition to getting RPGed.

In fact, he's danced around and blitzed her another time in the same arc, just for the sake of consistency:

And there's the Shang Chi feat from Avengers World #3, where Tomi effortlessly destroyed him, completely and utterly blitzing him down. To be fair, Shang Chi was previously holding his own, but it was due to the Stark-Tech, trickery and tactics. When Tomi got serious, he blitzed him. And he's fairly fast. Shang Chi has dodged bullets inches from him with no effort at all. He's even danced around Zaran, a guy fast enough to casually deflect automatic gunfire like nothing. Basically Tomi blitzed Shang Chi, a character fast enough to dance around a person who deflects automatic gunfire. A bit of ABC logic, I know, but again, Tomi doesn't have many quantifiable combat speed feats.

I'll delve on the topic of Wolverine. Logan has intercepted machine gunfire moving many many feet, ran to the shooter right after he shot the bullet and crossed 5-feet then proceeded to cut the gun apart before the bullet could even leave the muzzle, moved faster-than-eyesight, moved so fast while fighting Sabertooth that Psylocke struggled to keep track of them, has been noted to be comparably fast if not faster than Kaine and Spider-man by these characters themselves and tagged them, etc etc. Tomi seemed consistently faster throughout their fights. The first fight he wrecked Logan's shit along with Elektra and effectively blitzed both, all the while slaughtering SHIELD Agents by cutting off their heads (and, again, Gorgon was previously RPGed and impaled through his chest and lungs). Literally had Wolverine at his mercy (even saying stuff like "Damn! He's fast.") after curbstomping Elektra:

In their second fight the issue later (I only posted the relevant scans, you have the issue citation if you want to check the context), Gorgon was still faster. Not completely untouchable and untaggable to someone like Logan of course, but he still tagged and evaded moreso. By my count, Wolverine tagged him 3-4 times. Tomi tagged him about 7-8. That's twice as much. Note Logan had a way more powerful healing factor to heal getting impaled more effectively and faster (Gorgon had gotten impaled as well). This is also a damn excellent skill-feat - "Stop trying to match his skills." by his own admission and implication Tomi is a more skilled fighter.

Just to show you how much faster Tomi is than Logan, when he fought Shogun, he likened his speed to that of Tomi's, that's a pretty impressive statement given Shogun was dancing around Logan like nothing...

I would show cutting feats for Tomi's swords, but I don't think Peter is sword-proof, so he should be cut to mince-meat rather easily. The reason I think Gorgon can win this fight is due to superior speed (and at least control of speed), far superior skill, telepathy and a weapon that can ignore Peter's durability and cut him easily. Here are instances of Gorgon mind-reading Elektra and SHIELD Agents using telepathy, seeing when and where she will strike, anticipating her every move:

To be perfectly honest, Peter's more bloodlusted, stronger strikes should be enough to punch off Tomi's head. However I don't believe he'll ever get punched by a tank-busting strike or anything. Peter is morals on ergo I don't see him using such hits automatically and then there's Gorgon's superior speed, skill and move-reading (telepathy) preventing Spider-man from getting in any clean hits. Superior striking power doesn't matter when you can't consistently get clean hits. And the hits that Tomi gets tagged by, he can tank. IIRC, he's took RPGs, large multi hundred feet falls, and even a punch from Rockwell creating a massive concrete crater:

There's also his healing factor and pain tolerance. It's not Wolverine level or anything but it is good enough to heal getting impaled through the chest and likely through various vital organs in moments like nothing then go on to stomp Wolverine/Elektra respectively:

To Summarize:

The biggest issue is Spider-man's striking power. That is circumvented by the fact he's morals on and the fact Pete isn't getting many clean, meaningful strikes due to Gorgon's superior speed, skill, telepathy. Any hit he does get tagged by (and I don't think that hit would be particularly powerful given the reasons previously outlined), he can fight through due to raw durability and healing factor. Meanwhile, Tomi has no such problem. His sword should cut through Peter like mince-meat. I think it's more likely for Tomi to slice off Peter's head to be honest. Other than that, he does have the one-shot hax Gorgon stare, a surprising tactic Peter might not suspect and might one-shot.

@blackspidey2099

Now, I know Spidey kind of has a history of jobbing a bit against "skilled fighters" and opponents in that archetype, but I still think Spidey can take this battle for a multitude of reasons.

First, I'd like to establish that Spidey has fought Gorgon before and thus knows his powers.

This means he won't be getting blindsided by Gorgon's stone stare or anything like that. You can also see that Peter had no issues dodging Gorgon's strikes. While Peter was wearing his armor in that battle, the armor doesn't increase Peter's reaction times so it shouldn't have been a factor in their battle. Now, you might think that needing to close his eyes to counter Gorgon's stone stare might negatively affect Peter's ability to fight Gorgon. However, that simply isn't the case. In fact, Spider-Man has been shown to be a better fighter when he relies more on his spider-senses than his eyesight, because it forces him to take the battle more seriously instead of jobbing as he is sometimes wont to do. A great example of this is in his battle with Daken, where he was forced to stop using his eyesight due to Daken's pheromones distorting Spider-Man's visual acuity.

Note how Spider-Man says Daken is just as fast as Wolverine is. In the beginning of the fight, he keeps missing Daken and being tagged since Daken's pheromones are distorting his visual senses. However, when he closes his eyes on the fourth page, and stops being affected by Daken's pheromones, he easily and casually fodderizes someone who is just as fast as Wolverine. That's a feat I don't think Gorgon can replicate.

I'll further delve into the speed comparison since I think it's the most important aspect of this battle. Gorgon has shown to be a bullet timer, but I don't think his bullet timing feats are as good as Spider-Man's. This is because, at least as far as I'm aware, Gorgon's bullet timing feats consist of him swinging his sword really quickly in a circle to essentially form a shield in the air. That's a great feat for how fast he can swing his sword, but it isn't quite so good as a reaction feat, since he isn't actually cutting the bullets out of the air or anything - just blocking them. (EDIT: Apparently Tomi has a feat of cutting bullets out of the air, but they were just handgun bullets so I don't think that's as impressive as Spider-Man bullet-timing against sniper bullets) Meanwhile, I'd say Spider-Man being able to dodge all sorts of bullets after they were fired shows more impressive speed, since that means he can move a greater distance in a similar amount of time (moving a body requires more movement than just moving a sword, though the actual rotational velocity of Gorgon's sword is massive based on how he can form a shield in mid-air with it). Here are a selection of Spider-Man's bullet timing feats against a variety of different types of guns, from handguns to assault rifles to sniper rifles:

1: Spider-Man moves out of the way of a handgun bullet after it was fired (Spider-Man Vol. 1 #28).

2: Spider-Man dodges machine gun bullets after they were fired (The Amazing Spider-Man Annual #36).

3: Spider-Man dodges assault rifle fire after it was shot (The Amazing Spider-Man Vol. 2 #31).

4: Spider-Man moves someone out of the way of a sniper bullet after it was fired (The Spectacular Spider-Man Vol. 2 #25).

I think all of those are just as good, if not better than, any of Gorgon's showings. As for combat speed, Spider-Man has replicated if not bettered most of Gorgon's showings there too. For the feats Gorgon has of blitzing the likes of Wolverine and Elektra, Spider-Man has been able to casually outspeed Black Panther and Daredevil.

In fact, Black Panther is quicker than Logan is (Marvel Super Hero Contest of Champions #3) and although I couldn't find a specific scan, I'm pretty sure the same holds true for the speed comparison between Daredevil and Elektra, based on how their fights usually go down.

As for tagging Yo-yo, Peter's been able to replicate that feat against someone just as quick (if not quicker) - Speed Demon.

Although Peter can't tag Speed Demon in a straight up fight, he is able to see Speed Demon's every movement. He can also dodge Speed Demon's bullrushes and even tag Speed Demon at his maximum speed once he was off balance (so he wasn't able to dodge). If anything, I'd say this is better than Gorgon's showing against Yo-yo since Gorgon was only able to tag her once by catching her by surprise while she was in the air (so she didn't have the opportunity to dodge). In fact, Gorgon even got tagged by Quake's vibration blast right after that, which is a horrible low showing since a vibration through the air is just a sound wave and therefore travels at only Mach 1.

Sure, Peter only tagged Speed Demon in the air while he wasn't able to dodge and when Speed Demon wasn't looking at Peter (so he wasn't able to dodge), but he also showed the ability to dodge Speed Demon's bullrush while Speed Demon was still running at him.

That's why I believe Peter actually holds a speed advantage over Gorgon. Furthermore, even if Gorgon does manage to tag him a couple times, it won't be much of an issue for Peter. This is because Spider-Man's spider sense lets him position his body to minimize harm from attacks he can't dodge. For example, in the below incident, he moves in a way so that tracking bullets miss all his vital organs.

Before anyone tries to use this as a low showing for Spider-Man or say that he can't dodge bullets, that's completely untrue. In fact, in that scan he actually does manage to dodge the bullets; however, the issue is that the bullets are outfitted with advanced tracking technology which allows the bullets to turn and maneuver themselves in the air to hit their target (which was Spider-Man's spider-emblem). And while Spider-Man's reactions are more than fast enough to dodge bullets after they are fired, he doesn't have the raw movement speed to move at Mach 3+ when his body was already in the air (he can't change his trajectory and speed once he's already in the air as he can't fly) and he wasn't expecting the bullets to turn back and hit him. Furthermore, as Osborn says himself, Spider-Man's reaction time went "way down" when he was in close proximity to Anti-Venom (due to Anti-Venom having an affect of negating Spider-Man's powers). And guess what? Anti-Venom was right next to Spider-Man during that whole fight.

So, not only was Spider-Man's reaction time significantly reduced in that sequence, but he was also being targeted by smart tracking bullets which could literally maneuver mid air to turn and tag him even after he already dodged them. So yeah, it's far from a low showing.

Anyways, all that was just meant to say that Spider-Man has ways to minimize the damage from any attack which Gorgon lands on him - and I've already shown him being able to fodderize Daken even after having multiple stab wounds. However, on the other hand, Gorgon can't claim the same thing. Once Spider-Man lands a hit, even if he is morals on and not using his full striking power, Gorgon will be off balance and knocked into the air at the very least. This means he will be much less able to dodge and retaliate, so once Spider-Man lands a hit, it will become easier and easier for him to land further hits until Gorgon is down for the count. Or, if Spider-Man knocks him up with a single hit, it should be easy to web him a wall or something.

All of that still holds true for current Spidey, but there's a further complication regarding one of his attributes which have always held back his combat capacity - recently, Spider-Man was separated from Peter due to a freak lab accident. Essentially, the attributes everyone knows and loves about Spidey were divided into two people. Spider-Man kept all the powers, fighting skills, and scientific genius, while Peter kept the (you guessed it) morals and responsibility.

This means that current Spidey is essentially morals off at all times anyways, which obviously makes him an even more powerful and formidable opponent. A reflection of how this change has affected his fighting prowess can be seen in his recent encounter with Taskmaster and Black Ant.

He essentially fodderizes them both at the same time. This is a showing I absolutely don't think Gorgon could replicate, as I feel Taskmaster himself could give Gorgon a decent fight, let alone with Black Ant's help.

Overall, I feel that Spider-Man has the superior reaction and combat speed needed to take this fight, especially considering how his Spider-Sense can help him minimize any damage he takes and how I've shown he has the pain tolerance to fodderize skilled and quick enemies despite multiple stab wounds. I'm sure he will be fighting seriously and not jobbing, since he has already faced Gorgon and knows his powers and threat level - furthermore, if he closes his eyes to counter Gorgon's stone stare, he is essentially forced to take this fight seriously and fight to the best of his potential. That alone should be enough to prove Spider-Man should win, but the other factor to this fight is that current Spider-Man is essentially morals off, making him an even more effective and dangerous fighter. I don't see how Gorgon can handle all of that. And I haven't even bothered to bring up Peter's webbing, which should be more than enough to incapacitate Gorgon if and when he gets tagged with it. Overall, I think Gorgon can give Peter a good enough fight, but Peter should still take the majority more times than not. And that was only considering Gorgon's absolute best showings in his prime. If we take into account that Gorgon has become much less of a threat in recent years (ex. in Old Man Logan), Spider-Man can not only win this fight, but probably stomp.

@jashro44

At this scene in particular:

Notice how the green bubbles aren't there until the 4th panel. I think when Daken dodged the webbing it was with the technique he used to fight deadpool. Same as when spider-man said "I blink and he is there". Peter describes it as there being "no sound, warning, no nothing" so dakens vanishing technique has to do with stealth like he explained to deadpool. Spider-man thought that it was speed but the reality is, as daken told deadpool, it has nothing to do with speed. Spider-man just doesn't know better.

I've theorized for a while this is why spider-man thought wolverine was faster than him in the grave yard fight. Because wolverine was using his skill to maneuver into his blindspots like daken did, giving Peter the illusion wolverine is faster than him. It would make sense since spider-man said daken was "as fast as his dad", when daken was using a technique which he has described in the past as having nothing to do with speed.

As for spider-man vs gorgon I'm not sure. The problem with gorgon is he has become a jobber as people have mentioned. Writers bring gorgon into stories because they know readers view him as a threat but they never do a good job showing why he is a threat. Like during that agents of shield story where spider-man fought gorgon there was a direct reference to gorgon beating up wolverine and Elektra, but the same story had gorgon going down to bullets to the head. Gorgons high end feats are amazing, and I think at his peak he has better feats than spider-man. And I think the fact that spider-man did ask for help implies that Peter doesn't believe he could beat Gorgon easily, and he thinks there is potential for Gorgon to win. I don't think it means Peter would lose because he was in the same room as people like iron man, carol manvers, and choulk, but I think it shows that writers see Gorgon in the same tier. I think looking at the way Gorgon deflected bullets by spinning his blade he could counter webbing so Peter will likely have to go hand to hand where I think Gorgon should have the edge due to his reach, skill, his own respectable speed, and his TP balancing out spider-sense.

All though for the record I am mostly looking at this from an on paper perspective. As I said I think Gorgon is really inconsistent so looking at it featwise is really complicated. I don't really like the idea of just saying gorgon sucks and ignoring all of his feats especially given how crazy some of his feats are.

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I knew spidey would win