So you mean to tell me his weak ki blast is stronger than Vegeta's final flash? Is 17 the writer's favorite character or something? How did a Z jobber get from being weaker than Piccolo to being as strong as SSBK Goku? Was he training with a hundred gods and angels in that island? Lmao.

To be fair, how did Goku go from weaker than Piccolo to as strong as SSBK? Power creep is the main focus of the show, and 17 started out stronger than a Super Saiyan when we first met him. Presumably he'd never trained a day in his life prior to that.

If Frieza can go from much weaker than 17 as of the Android Saga to rivaling SSJB Goku with only four months of training, I think it's reasonable for 17 to go from stronger than a Super Saiyan to around SSB level over the span of a few years.

And aside from that, much of 17's success in this tournament can be attributed to his combat pragmatism and infinite stamina, allowing him to keep fighting without worrying about wasting his energy or getting weaker, while everyone else around him steadily loses steam.

Ah yes, the only character with enough sense to attack the opponent as they transform

@metaljimmor:

Goku was never weaker than Piccolo. Goku also has a power multiplier via Kaioken and his SS forms.

Here we go again with the he trained to be that strong argument. If we go by this logic then Vegeta should've murked Cell during the Cell games after training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber two times. 17's power creep is WIS at best.

Um, no, Frieza's power creep is also WIS.

Um, again, no. In Z where was this infinite stamina? He was panting heavily against Piccolo and he was too weak to even do anything against Cell. Favoritism at best.

Plot !

17 actually trained for 10 years straight and he could do so having infinite stamina tirelessly. He knew how strong Cell is and how strong Kid Buu was and his focus was also being the strongest since the start. So, I'd say he is significantly stronger than Kid Buu. He was already an SSJ+ level opponent when we first saw him being activated.

17 makes much more sense than Frieza's 4 months Zenkai and never trained the body stuff.

@metaljimmor: Goku wasn't weaker than Piccolo . IIRC , Piccolo was equal to android 17 . However , in DBS , android 17 admitted that if he had fought Goku back in android saga , he would have lost . This puts Goku above 17 and Piccolo .

Secondly , it's not fair to compare one race with another . Saiyans are born to get stronger. They get stronger with each battle and have several forms to get stronger . Not to mention that Goku got a lot of power from the SSG ritual + had training with GODS and Angels . It completely makes sense that he would be above Piccolo , who doesn't get stronger after battles nor does he have any forms to increase his power level .

Similarly , Frieza is from another race , who has even way more potential than even the saiyans . It also somewhat makes sense for him to be as strong as he is .

17 on the other hand , is a cyborg - part robot , part man . Since the robot part of him can't get stronger , 17 can get stronger by only training his human parts . This is why he should have got stronger at the rate of someone like Krillin , Tien or Roshi (prodigies of his own race) , not Goku or Frieza , who are aliens and have a much easier path to power . What makes this much worse is that 17 got SSB level while training ALONE by HIMSELF , with no-one to guide him and teach him . + He didn't even fight strong opponents. 17 should have gotten stronger , but like SSJ 2-3 level , not Blue .

It also doesn't make sense how 17 is better tactically than people like Goku and Vegeta . They are people who are born to fight , have been training since childhood , and have fought all kinds of opponents . 17 used to be regular human + doesn't really have a lot of experience .

@trololololol: @jadenyuki02:

I am fairly sure Piccolo was stronger than Goku after fusing with Kami and before everyone went into the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. I could be wrong, it's been a while. Either way, my point is we've been watching Goku's progress, but that doesn't mean 17 hasn't also been working hard to stay in that range. He's been keeping up, which is a lot easier to swallow than Frieza blowing past Goku's years of training in a matter of months.

Jaden, the infinite stamina was there in Z. 17 was panting because he was taking damage from Piccolo's attacks, but the reason he was ultimately going to win was because Piccolo was getting tired while 17 was not. This was also stated to be the difference between the 17 and 18 models and the energy draining models Dr. Gero was using prior. 17 and 18 have infinite energy, but they were too difficult to control.

Troll, we don't actually know how being a cyborg effects training gains. He isn't fully mechanical like 16 and seems to have much of his old human biology, just enhanced with an energy core that gives him infinite ki reserves. It's also worth pointing out that 17's barriers are waaaaay more versatile than they used to be. It seems like he's been training in the use of his cyborg abilities considerably, honing them to gain greater control.

As far as tactics go, Vegeta and Goku are capable of being tactically intelligent, but Goku has shown very little strategic skill. Vegeta is a good strategist too, but he suffers from a crippling character weakness, as does Goku. As saiyans they are slaves to the whim of their lust for battle and their pride, causing them to make hilariously bad tactical choices all the time. This is why Piccolo has always tended to be the top strategist and tactician of the group. He doesn't have that pride or battle lust to cloud his judgement.

If Vegeta played this tournament the way he did back in the Namek Saga, before he became a Super Saiyan and was more aware of his limitations, he'd probably be on the same level as 17 as a tactician and strategist. Unfortunately he's too prideful for that and keeps wanting to tackle things head on instead of playing dead and hiding when things get too rough.

17 used to have a crippling pride issue, but after literally getting eaten by Cell because of it he's grown out of it. Now he's matured considerably and takes threats seriously. He bides his time, waits for an opening, then strikes. He tries to out last his opponents by playing to his strength. This is good character development, in my opinion. As is his newfound desire to spend time with his family.

To be honest, I kind of want a 17 spin-off now. He's gone through a lot of personal growth over the years, going from an arrogant killer to a calm, nature loving protector of life. I wish we got to see that.

How do you get stronger fighting poachers?

Strong af poachers. Also, didn't Dende say 17 protected the planet whenever Goku was away? Sounds like bullshit.

Meh, He isn't really when you get down to it. The reason he performed so well was due to his Battle Intelligence and Barriers aside from that I'd hardly call him strong (If anything weak If comparing him to other High Tiers)

Yeah... that really didn't make any sense cause the Z fighters should've sensed the Ki of whomever 17 was fighting, unless these "mysterious threats" were also robotic in nature and had no ki signature....

It's already been debunked that Androids are incapable of getting stronger.

They also introduced something called "image-training" which is how Frieza not only got stronger in Hell, but also learned to maintain his Golden Form without draining a massive amount of energy...an asspull to be sure, but it's there, and it's been brought up before.

We don't know what kind of training 17 did...Some of it could have been "image-training," perhaps against Cell and later Majin Buu.

We don't know what kind of training Frieza did in that 4-month gap either, going from his Namek-saga power to his Resurrection F power.

Toriyama has also said before 17 was built with a massive amount of potential. It's easily plausible that 17 could gain a massive level of power in the 10 or w/e years had passed since the Android saga.

I think this has been around for a looooong time, Krillin and Gohan were doing it on their trip to Namek and i'm pretty sure it had happened at least once before

Also it would've been better if they implied that Frieza trained in hell, instead of that 4 month crap.

Plot and poor writing, same goes with Frieza's insane 4 month power boost.

I mean jiren blocked vegeta final flash. He was on guard.

17 caught him off guard. Which is still awful writing because it was literally stated jiren never let his guard down lol

Well Training with Multiple Cell Jrs for 10 straight years makes sense now.

You have to factory in his motivation to be the strongest android. He had some pride in it. Not to mention he is capable of doing tireless training or fights due to the literal infinite stamina that Gero gave him.

As I stated earlier that he knew how powerful Cell was and could feel Kid Buu's too so he had some motivation behind him.

Frieza's was poor writing but it is what it is but 17 makes better sense.

He is still baseline Blue level.

@scotchbear: Exactly. An experienced assassin like Hit failed to catch him off guard at what is said to be one of the most vulnerable moments making Whis comment that he don't have the weakness of lowering his guard. Before the tournament began, Jiren showed a display of awareness by not dodging the kachi katchin blocks unnecessarily. Later they forgot everything and make him take a hit just to make 17 look cool.