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Orion & Captain Marvel (DC) vs. Thor & Count Nefaria




























Orion & Captain Marvel (DC) vs. Thor & Count Nefaria















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#1
Posted by

The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 8 days ago
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Orion
Orion
Captain Marvel (Billy Batson)
Captain Marvel (Billy Batson)
No Caption ProvidedNo Caption Provided
Thor OdinsonThor Odinson
Thor Odinson
Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)
Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)

  • CIS off

  • No Prep

  • No BFR

  • DC team is Pre-New 52

  • Both teams are going all out

  • Winner by KO or incapacitation

  • Fight takes place on New Genesis

















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#3
Posted by

Darth_Nimrod
(2046 posts)
- 1 month, 8 days ago
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Bump



Online









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#4
Posted by

Cognitive
(1238 posts)
- 1 month, 7 days ago
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Team 1 due to Orion.

















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#6
Edited by
xMangog__Beastx
(2310 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
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@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.














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#7
Posted by

Kevd4wg
(9092 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
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Team 1 due to Orion.


This, also Nefaria is one step above Featless












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#8
Posted by

The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Callouts:






Thor:


@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf














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#9
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Nefaria solos.












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#10
Posted by

hurricanefunnel
(528 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio





@xmangog__beastx said:


@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




copy that












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#11
Posted by

Taskofwar
(595 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
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@hurricanefunnel said:



@xmangog__beastx said:

@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




copy that















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#12
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Nefaria drains his energy quickly during battle against powerful opponents like Thor, Iron Man and Vision. Even when he was written at his most powerful, Nefaria drained more energy than he could recover it. Orion's Astro Force is also more than capable of KOing Nefaria given that it can knock out Superman and cause global tremors from being fired at the moon.












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#13
Posted by

Eeef
(1368 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion solostomps.












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#14
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
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@lvenger: Fair point, but I'm not convinced Orion won't be eating dirt before then.












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#15
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
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@tifalockhart: Because of Nefaria's fight with Thor? Blocking Mjolnir is neat but Thor was still in the game after that. I'm not convinced Nefaria's physicals are consistently as impressive as the Superman/Hulk/Thor tier.












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#16
Edited by
Stalin-Is-Steel
(3586 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion stomps, Nefaria at his maximum best (as stated by himself) was throwing a mountain which isn't that impressive in comparison tbh.












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#17
Edited by
TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: because of Busiek's run where the Avengers winning back in the '70's was a "fluke" according to iirc Wasp and Mjolnir bounced off his chest in a flashback panel.


He may have had poor showings later but back when I was reading he took on the Avengers and the Thunderbolts simultaneously.












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#18
Edited by
The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
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@stalin-is-steel: Nefaria's powers were weakening when he lifted that mountain.


Also, Nefaria got more powerful after his fight in Iron Man Annual 1999.


In The Avengers Vol. 3 #34 Iron Man said that "he's more powerful than ever!".












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#19
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
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@tifalockhart: Ah I knew you were going to bring that up. Tell me, who was the most powerful Avenger or Thunderbolt there? Who actually compared to Orion and Captain Marvel in terms of strength, let alone Hulk and Thor? I know all the characters that Nefaria fought but I want to hear your thoughts on why this is such a good showing.












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#20
Posted by

MrStranger
(1472 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1.












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#21
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
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@lvenger: I'll have to reread the arc. Brb.












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#22
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 4 days ago
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@lvenger: alright I'm back. I'm no Marvel expert, but I'd guess Scarlet Witch was the most powerful member he took on. As far as fighting guys on par with Thor, no, he didn't encounter any in that instance, but Iron Man especially under Busiek isn't far behind and She-Hulk, Warbird, and Vision aren't exactly lightweights. He was simultaneously tanking their combined hits, among others. It wasn't just physical might they tossed at him either, he proved resistant to Scarlet Witch's magic, Songbird encasing him in a sound construct stronger than steel, and even Vision solidifying inside him.


I am genuinely baffled as to why he is being treated as a weak link here. If he was a tier below Thor then why didn't Thor solo him? If he was a tier below Thor why would it take three WEEKS of fighting for Iron Man and company to wear him down? And that still doesn't account for the stealth retcon of Mjolnir being no-sold by his chest.


Maybe he doesn't solo and I was wrong about that but he's being dismissed rather unfairly. Thor vs. Orion would be a rough fight yet the majority is acting like Orion would stomp The Count who at least rivals Thor.












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#23
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
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@tifalockhart: Scarlet Witch is the obvious choice for damage output but Thor was tanking Scarlet Witch's hex blasts along with her and Havok's blasts combined. She had to BFR him as there was no defeating him in direct conflict according to the narration. So Thor has Nefaria outperformed against Wanda. Iron Man, Vision, She Hulk and Warbird are all mid tiers and they were the only ones that were even remotely a threat to Nefaria before and for comparison, Pre Core Breach Hulk was stated to be more powerful than Iron Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch & Ionic Wonder Man combined.


No Caption Provided

This is the same Wonder Man who could turn the tide against Nefaria when free from his control yet Hulk is more powerful than him and 3 other mid tiers. Breaking a stronger than steel construct is also child's play to a high tier


Plot and because the writers intended for him to be a match for Thor. However, Thor has gained more feats over the years of his appearance that put him above Nefaria on a consistent basis and Nefaria was losing power rapidly fighting someone as powerful as Thor. Which means fighting Billy or Orion will drain his power at a near, if not equal rate. The stealth retcon flies in the face of their actual fight so it can be dismissed pretty easily.


Because Nefaria only has a few feats that are actually impressive and years worth of jobbing. Thor and Hulk have long since outclassed Nefaria with their feats whereas the Count doesn't have the showings to contend with them. I'll quote from a cancelled Hulk vs Count Nefaria CAV to demonstrate why Nefaria's energy stamina is a significant disadvantage for him.





Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:


No Caption Provided

They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;


  1. Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...

  2. Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.














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#24
Posted by

rhistr
(347 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1. Give Thor a better teammate.












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#25
Posted by

HeirToTheKingdom
(9201 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 2.












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#26
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
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@lvenger: Define "tanking." If Thor was no-selling the combined attacks of Scarlet Witch and Havok I'll have to concede the point.


Thor is not Hulk. I also don't recall Wonder Man posing a significant threat to Nefaria in a physical sense either (but my copy of issue #33 is missing so I could be wrong).


We don't know how much stronger than steel the construct was, but even Etrigan had trouble when his arms were pinned by a car wrapped around him. Nefaria was encased with the stuff and broke out with no apparent strain.


Dismissing a feat just because you don't agree with it leads nowhere. If we're going by volume of feats, then Orion has Yuga Khan beat.


Why do you disagree with the three weeks assessment?












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#27
Posted by

RampageTheFirst
(3827 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 with Orion as MVP.












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#28
Posted by

IchiNiSanji
(444 posts)
- 1 month, 2 days ago
- Show Bio


Nefaria lacks endurance to be useful past a point in this battle.












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#29
Edited by
Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 16 hours ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Well I'll post the scans from Uncanny Avengers #4 so you can see exactly how Thor fared. I think it's pretty hard to deny that what Thor is doing this isn't tanking these energy blasts.


Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

In contrast, a less skilled and experienced Wanda was able to hurt Nefaria with her chaos magic.


That was during their first fight where Wonder Man wasn't a being of pure Ionic energy yet. When Simon was freed from Nefaria's control, he posed a much greater threat than he did back then.


It's still unquantifiable and still irrelevant given that stronger than steel is a vague statement. Destroying secondary adamantium would be a better measurement of strength but breaking something stronger than steel is something mid tiers should be able to do.


That's not what I'm saying though. I'm saying it can be dismissed because it flies in the face of how the fight actually went where Thor was the only Avenger who Nefaria was actually scared of and could consistently harm the Count.


Because to paraphrase the argument from before, Nefaria will be exerting significantly more effort against Orion and Captain Marvel than he would against a group of street levellers and mid tiers. That means he'll be expending energy and getting weaker and weaker whilst the fight progresses. Also, even if the energy drain wasn't a factor, Orion and Marvel outclass him by comparative feats.












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#30
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
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@lvenger: In that case I've got no choice but to concede Thor has more durability than Nefaria.












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#31
Posted by

Ancient_0f_Days
(16995 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
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Would it be a stretch to say Orion can one shot Nefaria with the Astro Force then go on the fight Thor considering his speed in the Astro-Harness? Honestly, he's a tier above him and if we look into his Astro Force feats, he can damn near continent bust, not even considering the sheer size of Apokolips and the amount of the planet Orion was destroying. Not to mention how he one shotted Kalibak, Mantis and Superman by flying into them. If Orion can one shot Nefaria before Thor can land a hit....Orion can solo












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#32
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 30 days, 8 hours ago
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@tifalockhart: Thanks for the positive discussion though, I appreciated the reasonable counter arguments you put up, I could definitely see where you were coming from regarding Nefaria.












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#33
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 27 days, 23 hours ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: Thanks. Despite adamantly disagreeing with you on a few occasions you definitely know how to debate properly.










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Orion & Captain Marvel (DC) vs. Thor & Count Nefaria















Avatar image for the_dog_of_war



#1
Posted by

The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 8 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion
Orion
Captain Marvel (Billy Batson)
Captain Marvel (Billy Batson)
No Caption ProvidedNo Caption Provided
Thor OdinsonThor Odinson
Thor Odinson
Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)
Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)

  • CIS off

  • No Prep

  • No BFR

  • DC team is Pre-New 52

  • Both teams are going all out

  • Winner by KO or incapacitation

  • Fight takes place on New Genesis

















Avatar image for darth_nimrod



#3
Posted by

Darth_Nimrod
(2046 posts)
- 1 month, 8 days ago
- Show Bio


Bump



Online









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#4
Posted by

Cognitive
(1238 posts)
- 1 month, 7 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 due to Orion.

















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#6
Edited by
xMangog__Beastx
(2310 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio





@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.














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#7
Posted by

Kevd4wg
(9092 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 due to Orion.


This, also Nefaria is one step above Featless












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#8
Posted by

The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Callouts:






Thor:


@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf














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#9
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Nefaria solos.












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#10
Posted by

hurricanefunnel
(528 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio





@xmangog__beastx said:


@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




copy that












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#11
Posted by

Taskofwar
(595 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
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@hurricanefunnel said:



@xmangog__beastx said:

@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




copy that















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#12
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Nefaria drains his energy quickly during battle against powerful opponents like Thor, Iron Man and Vision. Even when he was written at his most powerful, Nefaria drained more energy than he could recover it. Orion's Astro Force is also more than capable of KOing Nefaria given that it can knock out Superman and cause global tremors from being fired at the moon.












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#13
Posted by

Eeef
(1368 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion solostomps.












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#14
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
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@lvenger: Fair point, but I'm not convinced Orion won't be eating dirt before then.












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#15
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
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@tifalockhart: Because of Nefaria's fight with Thor? Blocking Mjolnir is neat but Thor was still in the game after that. I'm not convinced Nefaria's physicals are consistently as impressive as the Superman/Hulk/Thor tier.












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#16
Edited by
Stalin-Is-Steel
(3586 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion stomps, Nefaria at his maximum best (as stated by himself) was throwing a mountain which isn't that impressive in comparison tbh.












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#17
Edited by
TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
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@lvenger: because of Busiek's run where the Avengers winning back in the '70's was a "fluke" according to iirc Wasp and Mjolnir bounced off his chest in a flashback panel.


He may have had poor showings later but back when I was reading he took on the Avengers and the Thunderbolts simultaneously.












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#18
Edited by
The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
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@stalin-is-steel: Nefaria's powers were weakening when he lifted that mountain.


Also, Nefaria got more powerful after his fight in Iron Man Annual 1999.


In The Avengers Vol. 3 #34 Iron Man said that "he's more powerful than ever!".












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#19
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
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@tifalockhart: Ah I knew you were going to bring that up. Tell me, who was the most powerful Avenger or Thunderbolt there? Who actually compared to Orion and Captain Marvel in terms of strength, let alone Hulk and Thor? I know all the characters that Nefaria fought but I want to hear your thoughts on why this is such a good showing.












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#20
Posted by

MrStranger
(1472 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1.












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#21
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: I'll have to reread the arc. Brb.












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#22
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 4 days ago
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@lvenger: alright I'm back. I'm no Marvel expert, but I'd guess Scarlet Witch was the most powerful member he took on. As far as fighting guys on par with Thor, no, he didn't encounter any in that instance, but Iron Man especially under Busiek isn't far behind and She-Hulk, Warbird, and Vision aren't exactly lightweights. He was simultaneously tanking their combined hits, among others. It wasn't just physical might they tossed at him either, he proved resistant to Scarlet Witch's magic, Songbird encasing him in a sound construct stronger than steel, and even Vision solidifying inside him.


I am genuinely baffled as to why he is being treated as a weak link here. If he was a tier below Thor then why didn't Thor solo him? If he was a tier below Thor why would it take three WEEKS of fighting for Iron Man and company to wear him down? And that still doesn't account for the stealth retcon of Mjolnir being no-sold by his chest.


Maybe he doesn't solo and I was wrong about that but he's being dismissed rather unfairly. Thor vs. Orion would be a rough fight yet the majority is acting like Orion would stomp The Count who at least rivals Thor.












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#23
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
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@tifalockhart: Scarlet Witch is the obvious choice for damage output but Thor was tanking Scarlet Witch's hex blasts along with her and Havok's blasts combined. She had to BFR him as there was no defeating him in direct conflict according to the narration. So Thor has Nefaria outperformed against Wanda. Iron Man, Vision, She Hulk and Warbird are all mid tiers and they were the only ones that were even remotely a threat to Nefaria before and for comparison, Pre Core Breach Hulk was stated to be more powerful than Iron Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch & Ionic Wonder Man combined.


No Caption Provided

This is the same Wonder Man who could turn the tide against Nefaria when free from his control yet Hulk is more powerful than him and 3 other mid tiers. Breaking a stronger than steel construct is also child's play to a high tier


Plot and because the writers intended for him to be a match for Thor. However, Thor has gained more feats over the years of his appearance that put him above Nefaria on a consistent basis and Nefaria was losing power rapidly fighting someone as powerful as Thor. Which means fighting Billy or Orion will drain his power at a near, if not equal rate. The stealth retcon flies in the face of their actual fight so it can be dismissed pretty easily.


Because Nefaria only has a few feats that are actually impressive and years worth of jobbing. Thor and Hulk have long since outclassed Nefaria with their feats whereas the Count doesn't have the showings to contend with them. I'll quote from a cancelled Hulk vs Count Nefaria CAV to demonstrate why Nefaria's energy stamina is a significant disadvantage for him.





Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:


No Caption Provided

They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;


  1. Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...

  2. Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.














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#24
Posted by

rhistr
(347 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1. Give Thor a better teammate.












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#25
Posted by

HeirToTheKingdom
(9201 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 2.












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#26
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
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@lvenger: Define "tanking." If Thor was no-selling the combined attacks of Scarlet Witch and Havok I'll have to concede the point.


Thor is not Hulk. I also don't recall Wonder Man posing a significant threat to Nefaria in a physical sense either (but my copy of issue #33 is missing so I could be wrong).


We don't know how much stronger than steel the construct was, but even Etrigan had trouble when his arms were pinned by a car wrapped around him. Nefaria was encased with the stuff and broke out with no apparent strain.


Dismissing a feat just because you don't agree with it leads nowhere. If we're going by volume of feats, then Orion has Yuga Khan beat.


Why do you disagree with the three weeks assessment?












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#27
Posted by

RampageTheFirst
(3827 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 with Orion as MVP.












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#28
Posted by

IchiNiSanji
(444 posts)
- 1 month, 2 days ago
- Show Bio


Nefaria lacks endurance to be useful past a point in this battle.












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#29
Edited by
Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 16 hours ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Well I'll post the scans from Uncanny Avengers #4 so you can see exactly how Thor fared. I think it's pretty hard to deny that what Thor is doing this isn't tanking these energy blasts.


Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

In contrast, a less skilled and experienced Wanda was able to hurt Nefaria with her chaos magic.


That was during their first fight where Wonder Man wasn't a being of pure Ionic energy yet. When Simon was freed from Nefaria's control, he posed a much greater threat than he did back then.


It's still unquantifiable and still irrelevant given that stronger than steel is a vague statement. Destroying secondary adamantium would be a better measurement of strength but breaking something stronger than steel is something mid tiers should be able to do.


That's not what I'm saying though. I'm saying it can be dismissed because it flies in the face of how the fight actually went where Thor was the only Avenger who Nefaria was actually scared of and could consistently harm the Count.


Because to paraphrase the argument from before, Nefaria will be exerting significantly more effort against Orion and Captain Marvel than he would against a group of street levellers and mid tiers. That means he'll be expending energy and getting weaker and weaker whilst the fight progresses. Also, even if the energy drain wasn't a factor, Orion and Marvel outclass him by comparative feats.












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#30
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: In that case I've got no choice but to concede Thor has more durability than Nefaria.












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#31
Posted by

Ancient_0f_Days
(16995 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
- Show Bio


Would it be a stretch to say Orion can one shot Nefaria with the Astro Force then go on the fight Thor considering his speed in the Astro-Harness? Honestly, he's a tier above him and if we look into his Astro Force feats, he can damn near continent bust, not even considering the sheer size of Apokolips and the amount of the planet Orion was destroying. Not to mention how he one shotted Kalibak, Mantis and Superman by flying into them. If Orion can one shot Nefaria before Thor can land a hit....Orion can solo












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#32
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 30 days, 8 hours ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Thanks for the positive discussion though, I appreciated the reasonable counter arguments you put up, I could definitely see where you were coming from regarding Nefaria.












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#33
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 27 days, 23 hours ago
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@lvenger: Thanks. Despite adamantly disagreeing with you on a few occasions you definitely know how to debate properly.










Jump to Top

Jump to Last Read







































Orion & Captain Marvel (DC) vs. Thor & Count Nefaria















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#1
Posted by

The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 8 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion
Orion
Captain Marvel (Billy Batson)
Captain Marvel (Billy Batson)
No Caption ProvidedNo Caption Provided
Thor OdinsonThor Odinson
Thor Odinson
Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)
Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)

  • CIS off

  • No Prep

  • No BFR

  • DC team is Pre-New 52

  • Both teams are going all out

  • Winner by KO or incapacitation

  • Fight takes place on New Genesis

















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#3
Posted by

Darth_Nimrod
(2046 posts)
- 1 month, 8 days ago
- Show Bio


Bump



Online









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#4
Posted by

Cognitive
(1238 posts)
- 1 month, 7 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 due to Orion.

















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#6
Edited by
xMangog__Beastx
(2310 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio





@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.














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#7
Posted by

Kevd4wg
(9092 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 due to Orion.


This, also Nefaria is one step above Featless












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#8
Posted by

The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Callouts:






Thor:


@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf














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#9
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Nefaria solos.












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#10
Posted by

hurricanefunnel
(528 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio





@xmangog__beastx said:


@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




copy that












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#11
Posted by

Taskofwar
(595 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio




@hurricanefunnel said:



@xmangog__beastx said:

@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




copy that















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#12
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Nefaria drains his energy quickly during battle against powerful opponents like Thor, Iron Man and Vision. Even when he was written at his most powerful, Nefaria drained more energy than he could recover it. Orion's Astro Force is also more than capable of KOing Nefaria given that it can knock out Superman and cause global tremors from being fired at the moon.












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#13
Posted by

Eeef
(1368 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion solostomps.












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#14
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: Fair point, but I'm not convinced Orion won't be eating dirt before then.












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#15
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Because of Nefaria's fight with Thor? Blocking Mjolnir is neat but Thor was still in the game after that. I'm not convinced Nefaria's physicals are consistently as impressive as the Superman/Hulk/Thor tier.












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#16
Edited by
Stalin-Is-Steel
(3586 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion stomps, Nefaria at his maximum best (as stated by himself) was throwing a mountain which isn't that impressive in comparison tbh.












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#17
Edited by
TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: because of Busiek's run where the Avengers winning back in the '70's was a "fluke" according to iirc Wasp and Mjolnir bounced off his chest in a flashback panel.


He may have had poor showings later but back when I was reading he took on the Avengers and the Thunderbolts simultaneously.












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#18
Edited by
The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@stalin-is-steel: Nefaria's powers were weakening when he lifted that mountain.


Also, Nefaria got more powerful after his fight in Iron Man Annual 1999.


In The Avengers Vol. 3 #34 Iron Man said that "he's more powerful than ever!".












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#19
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Ah I knew you were going to bring that up. Tell me, who was the most powerful Avenger or Thunderbolt there? Who actually compared to Orion and Captain Marvel in terms of strength, let alone Hulk and Thor? I know all the characters that Nefaria fought but I want to hear your thoughts on why this is such a good showing.












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#20
Posted by

MrStranger
(1472 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1.












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#21
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: I'll have to reread the arc. Brb.












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#22
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 4 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: alright I'm back. I'm no Marvel expert, but I'd guess Scarlet Witch was the most powerful member he took on. As far as fighting guys on par with Thor, no, he didn't encounter any in that instance, but Iron Man especially under Busiek isn't far behind and She-Hulk, Warbird, and Vision aren't exactly lightweights. He was simultaneously tanking their combined hits, among others. It wasn't just physical might they tossed at him either, he proved resistant to Scarlet Witch's magic, Songbird encasing him in a sound construct stronger than steel, and even Vision solidifying inside him.


I am genuinely baffled as to why he is being treated as a weak link here. If he was a tier below Thor then why didn't Thor solo him? If he was a tier below Thor why would it take three WEEKS of fighting for Iron Man and company to wear him down? And that still doesn't account for the stealth retcon of Mjolnir being no-sold by his chest.


Maybe he doesn't solo and I was wrong about that but he's being dismissed rather unfairly. Thor vs. Orion would be a rough fight yet the majority is acting like Orion would stomp The Count who at least rivals Thor.












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#23
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Scarlet Witch is the obvious choice for damage output but Thor was tanking Scarlet Witch's hex blasts along with her and Havok's blasts combined. She had to BFR him as there was no defeating him in direct conflict according to the narration. So Thor has Nefaria outperformed against Wanda. Iron Man, Vision, She Hulk and Warbird are all mid tiers and they were the only ones that were even remotely a threat to Nefaria before and for comparison, Pre Core Breach Hulk was stated to be more powerful than Iron Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch & Ionic Wonder Man combined.


No Caption Provided

This is the same Wonder Man who could turn the tide against Nefaria when free from his control yet Hulk is more powerful than him and 3 other mid tiers. Breaking a stronger than steel construct is also child's play to a high tier


Plot and because the writers intended for him to be a match for Thor. However, Thor has gained more feats over the years of his appearance that put him above Nefaria on a consistent basis and Nefaria was losing power rapidly fighting someone as powerful as Thor. Which means fighting Billy or Orion will drain his power at a near, if not equal rate. The stealth retcon flies in the face of their actual fight so it can be dismissed pretty easily.


Because Nefaria only has a few feats that are actually impressive and years worth of jobbing. Thor and Hulk have long since outclassed Nefaria with their feats whereas the Count doesn't have the showings to contend with them. I'll quote from a cancelled Hulk vs Count Nefaria CAV to demonstrate why Nefaria's energy stamina is a significant disadvantage for him.





Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:


No Caption Provided

They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;


  1. Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...

  2. Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.














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#24
Posted by

rhistr
(347 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1. Give Thor a better teammate.












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#25
Posted by

HeirToTheKingdom
(9201 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 2.












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#26
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: Define "tanking." If Thor was no-selling the combined attacks of Scarlet Witch and Havok I'll have to concede the point.


Thor is not Hulk. I also don't recall Wonder Man posing a significant threat to Nefaria in a physical sense either (but my copy of issue #33 is missing so I could be wrong).


We don't know how much stronger than steel the construct was, but even Etrigan had trouble when his arms were pinned by a car wrapped around him. Nefaria was encased with the stuff and broke out with no apparent strain.


Dismissing a feat just because you don't agree with it leads nowhere. If we're going by volume of feats, then Orion has Yuga Khan beat.


Why do you disagree with the three weeks assessment?












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#27
Posted by

RampageTheFirst
(3827 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 with Orion as MVP.












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#28
Posted by

IchiNiSanji
(444 posts)
- 1 month, 2 days ago
- Show Bio


Nefaria lacks endurance to be useful past a point in this battle.












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#29
Edited by
Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 16 hours ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Well I'll post the scans from Uncanny Avengers #4 so you can see exactly how Thor fared. I think it's pretty hard to deny that what Thor is doing this isn't tanking these energy blasts.


Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

In contrast, a less skilled and experienced Wanda was able to hurt Nefaria with her chaos magic.


That was during their first fight where Wonder Man wasn't a being of pure Ionic energy yet. When Simon was freed from Nefaria's control, he posed a much greater threat than he did back then.


It's still unquantifiable and still irrelevant given that stronger than steel is a vague statement. Destroying secondary adamantium would be a better measurement of strength but breaking something stronger than steel is something mid tiers should be able to do.


That's not what I'm saying though. I'm saying it can be dismissed because it flies in the face of how the fight actually went where Thor was the only Avenger who Nefaria was actually scared of and could consistently harm the Count.


Because to paraphrase the argument from before, Nefaria will be exerting significantly more effort against Orion and Captain Marvel than he would against a group of street levellers and mid tiers. That means he'll be expending energy and getting weaker and weaker whilst the fight progresses. Also, even if the energy drain wasn't a factor, Orion and Marvel outclass him by comparative feats.












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#30
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: In that case I've got no choice but to concede Thor has more durability than Nefaria.












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#31
Posted by

Ancient_0f_Days
(16995 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
- Show Bio


Would it be a stretch to say Orion can one shot Nefaria with the Astro Force then go on the fight Thor considering his speed in the Astro-Harness? Honestly, he's a tier above him and if we look into his Astro Force feats, he can damn near continent bust, not even considering the sheer size of Apokolips and the amount of the planet Orion was destroying. Not to mention how he one shotted Kalibak, Mantis and Superman by flying into them. If Orion can one shot Nefaria before Thor can land a hit....Orion can solo












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#32
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 30 days, 8 hours ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Thanks for the positive discussion though, I appreciated the reasonable counter arguments you put up, I could definitely see where you were coming from regarding Nefaria.












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#33
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 27 days, 23 hours ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: Thanks. Despite adamantly disagreeing with you on a few occasions you definitely know how to debate properly.










Jump to Top

Jump to Last Read




































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#1
Posted by

The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 8 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion
Orion
Captain Marvel (Billy Batson)
Captain Marvel (Billy Batson)
No Caption ProvidedNo Caption Provided
Thor OdinsonThor Odinson
Thor Odinson
Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)
Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)

  • CIS off

  • No Prep

  • No BFR

  • DC team is Pre-New 52

  • Both teams are going all out

  • Winner by KO or incapacitation

  • Fight takes place on New Genesis

















Avatar image for darth_nimrod



#3
Posted by

Darth_Nimrod
(2046 posts)
- 1 month, 8 days ago
- Show Bio


Bump



Online









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#4
Posted by

Cognitive
(1238 posts)
- 1 month, 7 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 due to Orion.

















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#6
Edited by
xMangog__Beastx
(2310 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio





@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.














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#7
Posted by

Kevd4wg
(9092 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 due to Orion.


This, also Nefaria is one step above Featless












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#8
Posted by

The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Callouts:






Thor:


@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf














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#9
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Nefaria solos.












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#10
Posted by

hurricanefunnel
(528 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio





@xmangog__beastx said:


@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




copy that












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#11
Posted by

Taskofwar
(595 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio




@hurricanefunnel said:



@xmangog__beastx said:

@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




copy that















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#12
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Nefaria drains his energy quickly during battle against powerful opponents like Thor, Iron Man and Vision. Even when he was written at his most powerful, Nefaria drained more energy than he could recover it. Orion's Astro Force is also more than capable of KOing Nefaria given that it can knock out Superman and cause global tremors from being fired at the moon.












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#13
Posted by

Eeef
(1368 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion solostomps.












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#14
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: Fair point, but I'm not convinced Orion won't be eating dirt before then.












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#15
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Because of Nefaria's fight with Thor? Blocking Mjolnir is neat but Thor was still in the game after that. I'm not convinced Nefaria's physicals are consistently as impressive as the Superman/Hulk/Thor tier.












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#16
Edited by
Stalin-Is-Steel
(3586 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion stomps, Nefaria at his maximum best (as stated by himself) was throwing a mountain which isn't that impressive in comparison tbh.












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#17
Edited by
TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: because of Busiek's run where the Avengers winning back in the '70's was a "fluke" according to iirc Wasp and Mjolnir bounced off his chest in a flashback panel.


He may have had poor showings later but back when I was reading he took on the Avengers and the Thunderbolts simultaneously.












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#18
Edited by
The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@stalin-is-steel: Nefaria's powers were weakening when he lifted that mountain.


Also, Nefaria got more powerful after his fight in Iron Man Annual 1999.


In The Avengers Vol. 3 #34 Iron Man said that "he's more powerful than ever!".












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#19
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Ah I knew you were going to bring that up. Tell me, who was the most powerful Avenger or Thunderbolt there? Who actually compared to Orion and Captain Marvel in terms of strength, let alone Hulk and Thor? I know all the characters that Nefaria fought but I want to hear your thoughts on why this is such a good showing.












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#20
Posted by

MrStranger
(1472 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1.












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#21
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: I'll have to reread the arc. Brb.












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#22
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 4 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: alright I'm back. I'm no Marvel expert, but I'd guess Scarlet Witch was the most powerful member he took on. As far as fighting guys on par with Thor, no, he didn't encounter any in that instance, but Iron Man especially under Busiek isn't far behind and She-Hulk, Warbird, and Vision aren't exactly lightweights. He was simultaneously tanking their combined hits, among others. It wasn't just physical might they tossed at him either, he proved resistant to Scarlet Witch's magic, Songbird encasing him in a sound construct stronger than steel, and even Vision solidifying inside him.


I am genuinely baffled as to why he is being treated as a weak link here. If he was a tier below Thor then why didn't Thor solo him? If he was a tier below Thor why would it take three WEEKS of fighting for Iron Man and company to wear him down? And that still doesn't account for the stealth retcon of Mjolnir being no-sold by his chest.


Maybe he doesn't solo and I was wrong about that but he's being dismissed rather unfairly. Thor vs. Orion would be a rough fight yet the majority is acting like Orion would stomp The Count who at least rivals Thor.












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#23
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Scarlet Witch is the obvious choice for damage output but Thor was tanking Scarlet Witch's hex blasts along with her and Havok's blasts combined. She had to BFR him as there was no defeating him in direct conflict according to the narration. So Thor has Nefaria outperformed against Wanda. Iron Man, Vision, She Hulk and Warbird are all mid tiers and they were the only ones that were even remotely a threat to Nefaria before and for comparison, Pre Core Breach Hulk was stated to be more powerful than Iron Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch & Ionic Wonder Man combined.


No Caption Provided

This is the same Wonder Man who could turn the tide against Nefaria when free from his control yet Hulk is more powerful than him and 3 other mid tiers. Breaking a stronger than steel construct is also child's play to a high tier


Plot and because the writers intended for him to be a match for Thor. However, Thor has gained more feats over the years of his appearance that put him above Nefaria on a consistent basis and Nefaria was losing power rapidly fighting someone as powerful as Thor. Which means fighting Billy or Orion will drain his power at a near, if not equal rate. The stealth retcon flies in the face of their actual fight so it can be dismissed pretty easily.


Because Nefaria only has a few feats that are actually impressive and years worth of jobbing. Thor and Hulk have long since outclassed Nefaria with their feats whereas the Count doesn't have the showings to contend with them. I'll quote from a cancelled Hulk vs Count Nefaria CAV to demonstrate why Nefaria's energy stamina is a significant disadvantage for him.





Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:


No Caption Provided

They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;


  1. Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...

  2. Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.














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#24
Posted by

rhistr
(347 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1. Give Thor a better teammate.












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#25
Posted by

HeirToTheKingdom
(9201 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 2.












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#26
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: Define "tanking." If Thor was no-selling the combined attacks of Scarlet Witch and Havok I'll have to concede the point.


Thor is not Hulk. I also don't recall Wonder Man posing a significant threat to Nefaria in a physical sense either (but my copy of issue #33 is missing so I could be wrong).


We don't know how much stronger than steel the construct was, but even Etrigan had trouble when his arms were pinned by a car wrapped around him. Nefaria was encased with the stuff and broke out with no apparent strain.


Dismissing a feat just because you don't agree with it leads nowhere. If we're going by volume of feats, then Orion has Yuga Khan beat.


Why do you disagree with the three weeks assessment?












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#27
Posted by

RampageTheFirst
(3827 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 with Orion as MVP.












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#28
Posted by

IchiNiSanji
(444 posts)
- 1 month, 2 days ago
- Show Bio


Nefaria lacks endurance to be useful past a point in this battle.












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#29
Edited by
Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 16 hours ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Well I'll post the scans from Uncanny Avengers #4 so you can see exactly how Thor fared. I think it's pretty hard to deny that what Thor is doing this isn't tanking these energy blasts.


Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

In contrast, a less skilled and experienced Wanda was able to hurt Nefaria with her chaos magic.


That was during their first fight where Wonder Man wasn't a being of pure Ionic energy yet. When Simon was freed from Nefaria's control, he posed a much greater threat than he did back then.


It's still unquantifiable and still irrelevant given that stronger than steel is a vague statement. Destroying secondary adamantium would be a better measurement of strength but breaking something stronger than steel is something mid tiers should be able to do.


That's not what I'm saying though. I'm saying it can be dismissed because it flies in the face of how the fight actually went where Thor was the only Avenger who Nefaria was actually scared of and could consistently harm the Count.


Because to paraphrase the argument from before, Nefaria will be exerting significantly more effort against Orion and Captain Marvel than he would against a group of street levellers and mid tiers. That means he'll be expending energy and getting weaker and weaker whilst the fight progresses. Also, even if the energy drain wasn't a factor, Orion and Marvel outclass him by comparative feats.












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#30
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: In that case I've got no choice but to concede Thor has more durability than Nefaria.












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#31
Posted by

Ancient_0f_Days
(16995 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
- Show Bio


Would it be a stretch to say Orion can one shot Nefaria with the Astro Force then go on the fight Thor considering his speed in the Astro-Harness? Honestly, he's a tier above him and if we look into his Astro Force feats, he can damn near continent bust, not even considering the sheer size of Apokolips and the amount of the planet Orion was destroying. Not to mention how he one shotted Kalibak, Mantis and Superman by flying into them. If Orion can one shot Nefaria before Thor can land a hit....Orion can solo












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#32
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 30 days, 8 hours ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Thanks for the positive discussion though, I appreciated the reasonable counter arguments you put up, I could definitely see where you were coming from regarding Nefaria.












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#33
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 27 days, 23 hours ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: Thanks. Despite adamantly disagreeing with you on a few occasions you definitely know how to debate properly.










Jump to Top

Jump to Last Read




























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#1
Posted by

The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 8 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion
Orion
Captain Marvel (Billy Batson)
Captain Marvel (Billy Batson)
No Caption ProvidedNo Caption Provided
Thor OdinsonThor Odinson
Thor Odinson
Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)
Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)

  • CIS off

  • No Prep

  • No BFR

  • DC team is Pre-New 52

  • Both teams are going all out

  • Winner by KO or incapacitation

  • Fight takes place on New Genesis

















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#3
Posted by

Darth_Nimrod
(2046 posts)
- 1 month, 8 days ago
- Show Bio


Bump



Online









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#4
Posted by

Cognitive
(1238 posts)
- 1 month, 7 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 due to Orion.

















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#6
Edited by
xMangog__Beastx
(2310 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio





@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.














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#7
Posted by

Kevd4wg
(9092 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 due to Orion.


This, also Nefaria is one step above Featless












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#8
Posted by

The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Callouts:






Thor:


@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf














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#9
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Nefaria solos.












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#10
Posted by

hurricanefunnel
(528 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio





@xmangog__beastx said:


@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




copy that












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#11
Posted by

Taskofwar
(595 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio




@hurricanefunnel said:



@xmangog__beastx said:

@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




copy that















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#12
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Nefaria drains his energy quickly during battle against powerful opponents like Thor, Iron Man and Vision. Even when he was written at his most powerful, Nefaria drained more energy than he could recover it. Orion's Astro Force is also more than capable of KOing Nefaria given that it can knock out Superman and cause global tremors from being fired at the moon.












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#13
Posted by

Eeef
(1368 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion solostomps.












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#14
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: Fair point, but I'm not convinced Orion won't be eating dirt before then.












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#15
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Because of Nefaria's fight with Thor? Blocking Mjolnir is neat but Thor was still in the game after that. I'm not convinced Nefaria's physicals are consistently as impressive as the Superman/Hulk/Thor tier.












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#16
Edited by
Stalin-Is-Steel
(3586 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion stomps, Nefaria at his maximum best (as stated by himself) was throwing a mountain which isn't that impressive in comparison tbh.












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#17
Edited by
TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: because of Busiek's run where the Avengers winning back in the '70's was a "fluke" according to iirc Wasp and Mjolnir bounced off his chest in a flashback panel.


He may have had poor showings later but back when I was reading he took on the Avengers and the Thunderbolts simultaneously.












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#18
Edited by
The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@stalin-is-steel: Nefaria's powers were weakening when he lifted that mountain.


Also, Nefaria got more powerful after his fight in Iron Man Annual 1999.


In The Avengers Vol. 3 #34 Iron Man said that "he's more powerful than ever!".












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#19
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Ah I knew you were going to bring that up. Tell me, who was the most powerful Avenger or Thunderbolt there? Who actually compared to Orion and Captain Marvel in terms of strength, let alone Hulk and Thor? I know all the characters that Nefaria fought but I want to hear your thoughts on why this is such a good showing.












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#20
Posted by

MrStranger
(1472 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1.












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#21
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: I'll have to reread the arc. Brb.












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#22
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 4 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: alright I'm back. I'm no Marvel expert, but I'd guess Scarlet Witch was the most powerful member he took on. As far as fighting guys on par with Thor, no, he didn't encounter any in that instance, but Iron Man especially under Busiek isn't far behind and She-Hulk, Warbird, and Vision aren't exactly lightweights. He was simultaneously tanking their combined hits, among others. It wasn't just physical might they tossed at him either, he proved resistant to Scarlet Witch's magic, Songbird encasing him in a sound construct stronger than steel, and even Vision solidifying inside him.


I am genuinely baffled as to why he is being treated as a weak link here. If he was a tier below Thor then why didn't Thor solo him? If he was a tier below Thor why would it take three WEEKS of fighting for Iron Man and company to wear him down? And that still doesn't account for the stealth retcon of Mjolnir being no-sold by his chest.


Maybe he doesn't solo and I was wrong about that but he's being dismissed rather unfairly. Thor vs. Orion would be a rough fight yet the majority is acting like Orion would stomp The Count who at least rivals Thor.












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#23
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Scarlet Witch is the obvious choice for damage output but Thor was tanking Scarlet Witch's hex blasts along with her and Havok's blasts combined. She had to BFR him as there was no defeating him in direct conflict according to the narration. So Thor has Nefaria outperformed against Wanda. Iron Man, Vision, She Hulk and Warbird are all mid tiers and they were the only ones that were even remotely a threat to Nefaria before and for comparison, Pre Core Breach Hulk was stated to be more powerful than Iron Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch & Ionic Wonder Man combined.


No Caption Provided

This is the same Wonder Man who could turn the tide against Nefaria when free from his control yet Hulk is more powerful than him and 3 other mid tiers. Breaking a stronger than steel construct is also child's play to a high tier


Plot and because the writers intended for him to be a match for Thor. However, Thor has gained more feats over the years of his appearance that put him above Nefaria on a consistent basis and Nefaria was losing power rapidly fighting someone as powerful as Thor. Which means fighting Billy or Orion will drain his power at a near, if not equal rate. The stealth retcon flies in the face of their actual fight so it can be dismissed pretty easily.


Because Nefaria only has a few feats that are actually impressive and years worth of jobbing. Thor and Hulk have long since outclassed Nefaria with their feats whereas the Count doesn't have the showings to contend with them. I'll quote from a cancelled Hulk vs Count Nefaria CAV to demonstrate why Nefaria's energy stamina is a significant disadvantage for him.





Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:


No Caption Provided

They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;


  1. Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...

  2. Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.














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#24
Posted by

rhistr
(347 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1. Give Thor a better teammate.












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#25
Posted by

HeirToTheKingdom
(9201 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 2.












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#26
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: Define "tanking." If Thor was no-selling the combined attacks of Scarlet Witch and Havok I'll have to concede the point.


Thor is not Hulk. I also don't recall Wonder Man posing a significant threat to Nefaria in a physical sense either (but my copy of issue #33 is missing so I could be wrong).


We don't know how much stronger than steel the construct was, but even Etrigan had trouble when his arms were pinned by a car wrapped around him. Nefaria was encased with the stuff and broke out with no apparent strain.


Dismissing a feat just because you don't agree with it leads nowhere. If we're going by volume of feats, then Orion has Yuga Khan beat.


Why do you disagree with the three weeks assessment?












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#27
Posted by

RampageTheFirst
(3827 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 with Orion as MVP.












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#28
Posted by

IchiNiSanji
(444 posts)
- 1 month, 2 days ago
- Show Bio


Nefaria lacks endurance to be useful past a point in this battle.












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#29
Edited by
Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 16 hours ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Well I'll post the scans from Uncanny Avengers #4 so you can see exactly how Thor fared. I think it's pretty hard to deny that what Thor is doing this isn't tanking these energy blasts.


Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

In contrast, a less skilled and experienced Wanda was able to hurt Nefaria with her chaos magic.


That was during their first fight where Wonder Man wasn't a being of pure Ionic energy yet. When Simon was freed from Nefaria's control, he posed a much greater threat than he did back then.


It's still unquantifiable and still irrelevant given that stronger than steel is a vague statement. Destroying secondary adamantium would be a better measurement of strength but breaking something stronger than steel is something mid tiers should be able to do.


That's not what I'm saying though. I'm saying it can be dismissed because it flies in the face of how the fight actually went where Thor was the only Avenger who Nefaria was actually scared of and could consistently harm the Count.


Because to paraphrase the argument from before, Nefaria will be exerting significantly more effort against Orion and Captain Marvel than he would against a group of street levellers and mid tiers. That means he'll be expending energy and getting weaker and weaker whilst the fight progresses. Also, even if the energy drain wasn't a factor, Orion and Marvel outclass him by comparative feats.












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#30
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: In that case I've got no choice but to concede Thor has more durability than Nefaria.












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#31
Posted by

Ancient_0f_Days
(16995 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
- Show Bio


Would it be a stretch to say Orion can one shot Nefaria with the Astro Force then go on the fight Thor considering his speed in the Astro-Harness? Honestly, he's a tier above him and if we look into his Astro Force feats, he can damn near continent bust, not even considering the sheer size of Apokolips and the amount of the planet Orion was destroying. Not to mention how he one shotted Kalibak, Mantis and Superman by flying into them. If Orion can one shot Nefaria before Thor can land a hit....Orion can solo












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#32
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 30 days, 8 hours ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Thanks for the positive discussion though, I appreciated the reasonable counter arguments you put up, I could definitely see where you were coming from regarding Nefaria.












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#33
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 27 days, 23 hours ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: Thanks. Despite adamantly disagreeing with you on a few occasions you definitely know how to debate properly.










Jump to Top

Jump to Last Read


























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#1
Posted by

The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 8 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion
Orion
Captain Marvel (Billy Batson)
Captain Marvel (Billy Batson)
No Caption ProvidedNo Caption Provided
Thor OdinsonThor Odinson
Thor Odinson
Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)
Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)

  • CIS off

  • No Prep

  • No BFR

  • DC team is Pre-New 52

  • Both teams are going all out

  • Winner by KO or incapacitation

  • Fight takes place on New Genesis

















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#3
Posted by

Darth_Nimrod
(2046 posts)
- 1 month, 8 days ago
- Show Bio


Bump



Online









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#4
Posted by

Cognitive
(1238 posts)
- 1 month, 7 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 due to Orion.

















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#6
Edited by
xMangog__Beastx
(2310 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio





@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.














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#7
Posted by

Kevd4wg
(9092 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 due to Orion.


This, also Nefaria is one step above Featless












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#8
Posted by

The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Callouts:






Thor:


@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf














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#9
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Nefaria solos.












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#10
Posted by

hurricanefunnel
(528 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio





@xmangog__beastx said:


@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




copy that












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#11
Posted by

Taskofwar
(595 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio




@hurricanefunnel said:



@xmangog__beastx said:

@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




copy that















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#12
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Nefaria drains his energy quickly during battle against powerful opponents like Thor, Iron Man and Vision. Even when he was written at his most powerful, Nefaria drained more energy than he could recover it. Orion's Astro Force is also more than capable of KOing Nefaria given that it can knock out Superman and cause global tremors from being fired at the moon.












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#13
Posted by

Eeef
(1368 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion solostomps.












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#14
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: Fair point, but I'm not convinced Orion won't be eating dirt before then.












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#15
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Because of Nefaria's fight with Thor? Blocking Mjolnir is neat but Thor was still in the game after that. I'm not convinced Nefaria's physicals are consistently as impressive as the Superman/Hulk/Thor tier.












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#16
Edited by
Stalin-Is-Steel
(3586 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion stomps, Nefaria at his maximum best (as stated by himself) was throwing a mountain which isn't that impressive in comparison tbh.












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#17
Edited by
TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: because of Busiek's run where the Avengers winning back in the '70's was a "fluke" according to iirc Wasp and Mjolnir bounced off his chest in a flashback panel.


He may have had poor showings later but back when I was reading he took on the Avengers and the Thunderbolts simultaneously.












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#18
Edited by
The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@stalin-is-steel: Nefaria's powers were weakening when he lifted that mountain.


Also, Nefaria got more powerful after his fight in Iron Man Annual 1999.


In The Avengers Vol. 3 #34 Iron Man said that "he's more powerful than ever!".












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#19
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Ah I knew you were going to bring that up. Tell me, who was the most powerful Avenger or Thunderbolt there? Who actually compared to Orion and Captain Marvel in terms of strength, let alone Hulk and Thor? I know all the characters that Nefaria fought but I want to hear your thoughts on why this is such a good showing.












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#20
Posted by

MrStranger
(1472 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1.












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#21
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: I'll have to reread the arc. Brb.












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#22
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 4 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: alright I'm back. I'm no Marvel expert, but I'd guess Scarlet Witch was the most powerful member he took on. As far as fighting guys on par with Thor, no, he didn't encounter any in that instance, but Iron Man especially under Busiek isn't far behind and She-Hulk, Warbird, and Vision aren't exactly lightweights. He was simultaneously tanking their combined hits, among others. It wasn't just physical might they tossed at him either, he proved resistant to Scarlet Witch's magic, Songbird encasing him in a sound construct stronger than steel, and even Vision solidifying inside him.


I am genuinely baffled as to why he is being treated as a weak link here. If he was a tier below Thor then why didn't Thor solo him? If he was a tier below Thor why would it take three WEEKS of fighting for Iron Man and company to wear him down? And that still doesn't account for the stealth retcon of Mjolnir being no-sold by his chest.


Maybe he doesn't solo and I was wrong about that but he's being dismissed rather unfairly. Thor vs. Orion would be a rough fight yet the majority is acting like Orion would stomp The Count who at least rivals Thor.












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#23
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Scarlet Witch is the obvious choice for damage output but Thor was tanking Scarlet Witch's hex blasts along with her and Havok's blasts combined. She had to BFR him as there was no defeating him in direct conflict according to the narration. So Thor has Nefaria outperformed against Wanda. Iron Man, Vision, She Hulk and Warbird are all mid tiers and they were the only ones that were even remotely a threat to Nefaria before and for comparison, Pre Core Breach Hulk was stated to be more powerful than Iron Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch & Ionic Wonder Man combined.


No Caption Provided

This is the same Wonder Man who could turn the tide against Nefaria when free from his control yet Hulk is more powerful than him and 3 other mid tiers. Breaking a stronger than steel construct is also child's play to a high tier


Plot and because the writers intended for him to be a match for Thor. However, Thor has gained more feats over the years of his appearance that put him above Nefaria on a consistent basis and Nefaria was losing power rapidly fighting someone as powerful as Thor. Which means fighting Billy or Orion will drain his power at a near, if not equal rate. The stealth retcon flies in the face of their actual fight so it can be dismissed pretty easily.


Because Nefaria only has a few feats that are actually impressive and years worth of jobbing. Thor and Hulk have long since outclassed Nefaria with their feats whereas the Count doesn't have the showings to contend with them. I'll quote from a cancelled Hulk vs Count Nefaria CAV to demonstrate why Nefaria's energy stamina is a significant disadvantage for him.





Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:


No Caption Provided

They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;


  1. Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...

  2. Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.














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#24
Posted by

rhistr
(347 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1. Give Thor a better teammate.












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#25
Posted by

HeirToTheKingdom
(9201 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 2.












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#26
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: Define "tanking." If Thor was no-selling the combined attacks of Scarlet Witch and Havok I'll have to concede the point.


Thor is not Hulk. I also don't recall Wonder Man posing a significant threat to Nefaria in a physical sense either (but my copy of issue #33 is missing so I could be wrong).


We don't know how much stronger than steel the construct was, but even Etrigan had trouble when his arms were pinned by a car wrapped around him. Nefaria was encased with the stuff and broke out with no apparent strain.


Dismissing a feat just because you don't agree with it leads nowhere. If we're going by volume of feats, then Orion has Yuga Khan beat.


Why do you disagree with the three weeks assessment?












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#27
Posted by

RampageTheFirst
(3827 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 with Orion as MVP.












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#28
Posted by

IchiNiSanji
(444 posts)
- 1 month, 2 days ago
- Show Bio


Nefaria lacks endurance to be useful past a point in this battle.












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#29
Edited by
Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 16 hours ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Well I'll post the scans from Uncanny Avengers #4 so you can see exactly how Thor fared. I think it's pretty hard to deny that what Thor is doing this isn't tanking these energy blasts.


Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

In contrast, a less skilled and experienced Wanda was able to hurt Nefaria with her chaos magic.


That was during their first fight where Wonder Man wasn't a being of pure Ionic energy yet. When Simon was freed from Nefaria's control, he posed a much greater threat than he did back then.


It's still unquantifiable and still irrelevant given that stronger than steel is a vague statement. Destroying secondary adamantium would be a better measurement of strength but breaking something stronger than steel is something mid tiers should be able to do.


That's not what I'm saying though. I'm saying it can be dismissed because it flies in the face of how the fight actually went where Thor was the only Avenger who Nefaria was actually scared of and could consistently harm the Count.


Because to paraphrase the argument from before, Nefaria will be exerting significantly more effort against Orion and Captain Marvel than he would against a group of street levellers and mid tiers. That means he'll be expending energy and getting weaker and weaker whilst the fight progresses. Also, even if the energy drain wasn't a factor, Orion and Marvel outclass him by comparative feats.












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#30
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: In that case I've got no choice but to concede Thor has more durability than Nefaria.












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#31
Posted by

Ancient_0f_Days
(16995 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
- Show Bio


Would it be a stretch to say Orion can one shot Nefaria with the Astro Force then go on the fight Thor considering his speed in the Astro-Harness? Honestly, he's a tier above him and if we look into his Astro Force feats, he can damn near continent bust, not even considering the sheer size of Apokolips and the amount of the planet Orion was destroying. Not to mention how he one shotted Kalibak, Mantis and Superman by flying into them. If Orion can one shot Nefaria before Thor can land a hit....Orion can solo












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#32
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 30 days, 8 hours ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Thanks for the positive discussion though, I appreciated the reasonable counter arguments you put up, I could definitely see where you were coming from regarding Nefaria.












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#33
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 27 days, 23 hours ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: Thanks. Despite adamantly disagreeing with you on a few occasions you definitely know how to debate properly.










Jump to Top

Jump to Last Read























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#1
Posted by

The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 8 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion
Orion
Captain Marvel (Billy Batson)
Captain Marvel (Billy Batson)
No Caption ProvidedNo Caption Provided
Thor OdinsonThor Odinson
Thor Odinson
Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)
Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)

  • CIS off

  • No Prep

  • No BFR

  • DC team is Pre-New 52

  • Both teams are going all out

  • Winner by KO or incapacitation

  • Fight takes place on New Genesis

















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#3
Posted by

Darth_Nimrod
(2046 posts)
- 1 month, 8 days ago
- Show Bio


Bump



Online









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#4
Posted by

Cognitive
(1238 posts)
- 1 month, 7 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 due to Orion.

















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#6
Edited by
xMangog__Beastx
(2310 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio





@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.














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#7
Posted by

Kevd4wg
(9092 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 due to Orion.


This, also Nefaria is one step above Featless












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#8
Posted by

The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Callouts:






Thor:


@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf














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#9
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Nefaria solos.












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#10
Posted by

hurricanefunnel
(528 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio





@xmangog__beastx said:


@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




copy that












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#11
Posted by

Taskofwar
(595 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio




@hurricanefunnel said:



@xmangog__beastx said:

@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




copy that















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#12
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Nefaria drains his energy quickly during battle against powerful opponents like Thor, Iron Man and Vision. Even when he was written at his most powerful, Nefaria drained more energy than he could recover it. Orion's Astro Force is also more than capable of KOing Nefaria given that it can knock out Superman and cause global tremors from being fired at the moon.












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#13
Posted by

Eeef
(1368 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion solostomps.












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#14
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: Fair point, but I'm not convinced Orion won't be eating dirt before then.












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#15
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Because of Nefaria's fight with Thor? Blocking Mjolnir is neat but Thor was still in the game after that. I'm not convinced Nefaria's physicals are consistently as impressive as the Superman/Hulk/Thor tier.












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#16
Edited by
Stalin-Is-Steel
(3586 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion stomps, Nefaria at his maximum best (as stated by himself) was throwing a mountain which isn't that impressive in comparison tbh.












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#17
Edited by
TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: because of Busiek's run where the Avengers winning back in the '70's was a "fluke" according to iirc Wasp and Mjolnir bounced off his chest in a flashback panel.


He may have had poor showings later but back when I was reading he took on the Avengers and the Thunderbolts simultaneously.












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#18
Edited by
The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@stalin-is-steel: Nefaria's powers were weakening when he lifted that mountain.


Also, Nefaria got more powerful after his fight in Iron Man Annual 1999.


In The Avengers Vol. 3 #34 Iron Man said that "he's more powerful than ever!".












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#19
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Ah I knew you were going to bring that up. Tell me, who was the most powerful Avenger or Thunderbolt there? Who actually compared to Orion and Captain Marvel in terms of strength, let alone Hulk and Thor? I know all the characters that Nefaria fought but I want to hear your thoughts on why this is such a good showing.












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#20
Posted by

MrStranger
(1472 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1.












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#21
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: I'll have to reread the arc. Brb.












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#22
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 4 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: alright I'm back. I'm no Marvel expert, but I'd guess Scarlet Witch was the most powerful member he took on. As far as fighting guys on par with Thor, no, he didn't encounter any in that instance, but Iron Man especially under Busiek isn't far behind and She-Hulk, Warbird, and Vision aren't exactly lightweights. He was simultaneously tanking their combined hits, among others. It wasn't just physical might they tossed at him either, he proved resistant to Scarlet Witch's magic, Songbird encasing him in a sound construct stronger than steel, and even Vision solidifying inside him.


I am genuinely baffled as to why he is being treated as a weak link here. If he was a tier below Thor then why didn't Thor solo him? If he was a tier below Thor why would it take three WEEKS of fighting for Iron Man and company to wear him down? And that still doesn't account for the stealth retcon of Mjolnir being no-sold by his chest.


Maybe he doesn't solo and I was wrong about that but he's being dismissed rather unfairly. Thor vs. Orion would be a rough fight yet the majority is acting like Orion would stomp The Count who at least rivals Thor.












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#23
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Scarlet Witch is the obvious choice for damage output but Thor was tanking Scarlet Witch's hex blasts along with her and Havok's blasts combined. She had to BFR him as there was no defeating him in direct conflict according to the narration. So Thor has Nefaria outperformed against Wanda. Iron Man, Vision, She Hulk and Warbird are all mid tiers and they were the only ones that were even remotely a threat to Nefaria before and for comparison, Pre Core Breach Hulk was stated to be more powerful than Iron Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch & Ionic Wonder Man combined.


No Caption Provided

This is the same Wonder Man who could turn the tide against Nefaria when free from his control yet Hulk is more powerful than him and 3 other mid tiers. Breaking a stronger than steel construct is also child's play to a high tier


Plot and because the writers intended for him to be a match for Thor. However, Thor has gained more feats over the years of his appearance that put him above Nefaria on a consistent basis and Nefaria was losing power rapidly fighting someone as powerful as Thor. Which means fighting Billy or Orion will drain his power at a near, if not equal rate. The stealth retcon flies in the face of their actual fight so it can be dismissed pretty easily.


Because Nefaria only has a few feats that are actually impressive and years worth of jobbing. Thor and Hulk have long since outclassed Nefaria with their feats whereas the Count doesn't have the showings to contend with them. I'll quote from a cancelled Hulk vs Count Nefaria CAV to demonstrate why Nefaria's energy stamina is a significant disadvantage for him.





Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:


No Caption Provided

They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;


  1. Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...

  2. Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.














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#24
Posted by

rhistr
(347 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1. Give Thor a better teammate.












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#25
Posted by

HeirToTheKingdom
(9201 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 2.












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#26
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: Define "tanking." If Thor was no-selling the combined attacks of Scarlet Witch and Havok I'll have to concede the point.


Thor is not Hulk. I also don't recall Wonder Man posing a significant threat to Nefaria in a physical sense either (but my copy of issue #33 is missing so I could be wrong).


We don't know how much stronger than steel the construct was, but even Etrigan had trouble when his arms were pinned by a car wrapped around him. Nefaria was encased with the stuff and broke out with no apparent strain.


Dismissing a feat just because you don't agree with it leads nowhere. If we're going by volume of feats, then Orion has Yuga Khan beat.


Why do you disagree with the three weeks assessment?












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#27
Posted by

RampageTheFirst
(3827 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 with Orion as MVP.












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#28
Posted by

IchiNiSanji
(444 posts)
- 1 month, 2 days ago
- Show Bio


Nefaria lacks endurance to be useful past a point in this battle.












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#29
Edited by
Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 16 hours ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Well I'll post the scans from Uncanny Avengers #4 so you can see exactly how Thor fared. I think it's pretty hard to deny that what Thor is doing this isn't tanking these energy blasts.


Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

In contrast, a less skilled and experienced Wanda was able to hurt Nefaria with her chaos magic.


That was during their first fight where Wonder Man wasn't a being of pure Ionic energy yet. When Simon was freed from Nefaria's control, he posed a much greater threat than he did back then.


It's still unquantifiable and still irrelevant given that stronger than steel is a vague statement. Destroying secondary adamantium would be a better measurement of strength but breaking something stronger than steel is something mid tiers should be able to do.


That's not what I'm saying though. I'm saying it can be dismissed because it flies in the face of how the fight actually went where Thor was the only Avenger who Nefaria was actually scared of and could consistently harm the Count.


Because to paraphrase the argument from before, Nefaria will be exerting significantly more effort against Orion and Captain Marvel than he would against a group of street levellers and mid tiers. That means he'll be expending energy and getting weaker and weaker whilst the fight progresses. Also, even if the energy drain wasn't a factor, Orion and Marvel outclass him by comparative feats.












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#30
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: In that case I've got no choice but to concede Thor has more durability than Nefaria.












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#31
Posted by

Ancient_0f_Days
(16995 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
- Show Bio


Would it be a stretch to say Orion can one shot Nefaria with the Astro Force then go on the fight Thor considering his speed in the Astro-Harness? Honestly, he's a tier above him and if we look into his Astro Force feats, he can damn near continent bust, not even considering the sheer size of Apokolips and the amount of the planet Orion was destroying. Not to mention how he one shotted Kalibak, Mantis and Superman by flying into them. If Orion can one shot Nefaria before Thor can land a hit....Orion can solo












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#32
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 30 days, 8 hours ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Thanks for the positive discussion though, I appreciated the reasonable counter arguments you put up, I could definitely see where you were coming from regarding Nefaria.












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#33
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 27 days, 23 hours ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: Thanks. Despite adamantly disagreeing with you on a few occasions you definitely know how to debate properly.










Jump to Top

Jump to Last Read












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#1
Posted by

The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 8 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion
Orion
Captain Marvel (Billy Batson)
Captain Marvel (Billy Batson)
No Caption ProvidedNo Caption Provided
Thor OdinsonThor Odinson
Thor Odinson
Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)
Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)

  • CIS off

  • No Prep

  • No BFR

  • DC team is Pre-New 52

  • Both teams are going all out

  • Winner by KO or incapacitation

  • Fight takes place on New Genesis








Avatar image for the_dog_of_war






#1
Posted by

The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 8 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion
Orion
Captain Marvel (Billy Batson)
Captain Marvel (Billy Batson)
No Caption ProvidedNo Caption Provided
Thor OdinsonThor Odinson
Thor Odinson
Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)
Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)

  • CIS off

  • No Prep

  • No BFR

  • DC team is Pre-New 52

  • Both teams are going all out

  • Winner by KO or incapacitation

  • Fight takes place on New Genesis








#1
Posted by

The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 8 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion
Orion
Captain Marvel (Billy Batson)
Captain Marvel (Billy Batson)
No Caption ProvidedNo Caption Provided
Thor OdinsonThor Odinson
Thor Odinson
Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)
Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)

  • CIS off

  • No Prep

  • No BFR

  • DC team is Pre-New 52

  • Both teams are going all out

  • Winner by KO or incapacitation

  • Fight takes place on New Genesis







#1
Posted by

The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 8 days ago
- Show Bio




Orion
Orion
Captain Marvel (Billy Batson)
Captain Marvel (Billy Batson)
No Caption ProvidedNo Caption Provided
Thor OdinsonThor Odinson
Thor Odinson
Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)
Count Nefaria (Luchino Nefaria)

  • CIS off

  • No Prep

  • No BFR

  • DC team is Pre-New 52

  • Both teams are going all out

  • Winner by KO or incapacitation

  • Fight takes place on New Genesis









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#3
Posted by

Darth_Nimrod
(2046 posts)
- 1 month, 8 days ago
- Show Bio


Bump



Online





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#3
Posted by

Darth_Nimrod
(2046 posts)
- 1 month, 8 days ago
- Show Bio


Bump



Online





#3
Posted by

Darth_Nimrod
(2046 posts)
- 1 month, 8 days ago
- Show Bio


Bump



Online




#3
Posted by

Darth_Nimrod
(2046 posts)
- 1 month, 8 days ago
- Show Bio




Bump





Online




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#4
Posted by

Cognitive
(1238 posts)
- 1 month, 7 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 due to Orion.








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#4
Posted by

Cognitive
(1238 posts)
- 1 month, 7 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 due to Orion.








#4
Posted by

Cognitive
(1238 posts)
- 1 month, 7 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 due to Orion.







#4
Posted by

Cognitive
(1238 posts)
- 1 month, 7 days ago
- Show Bio




Team 1 due to Orion.













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#6
Edited by
xMangog__Beastx
(2310 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio





@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.










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#6
Edited by
xMangog__Beastx
(2310 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio





@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.










#6
Edited by
xMangog__Beastx
(2310 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio





@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.









#6
Edited by
xMangog__Beastx
(2310 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio







@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.







@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.





@cognitive said:


Team 1 due to Orion.









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#7
Posted by

Kevd4wg
(9092 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 due to Orion.


This, also Nefaria is one step above Featless








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#7
Posted by

Kevd4wg
(9092 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 due to Orion.


This, also Nefaria is one step above Featless








#7
Posted by

Kevd4wg
(9092 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 due to Orion.


This, also Nefaria is one step above Featless







#7
Posted by

Kevd4wg
(9092 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio




Team 1 due to Orion.


This, also Nefaria is one step above Featless









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#8
Posted by

The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Callouts:






Thor:


@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf










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#8
Posted by

The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Callouts:






Thor:


@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf










#8
Posted by

The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Callouts:






Thor:


@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf









#8
Posted by

The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio




Callouts:






Thor:


@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf








Thor:


@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf








Thor:


@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf










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#9
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Nefaria solos.








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#9
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Nefaria solos.








#9
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio


Nefaria solos.







#9
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio




Nefaria solos.









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#10
Posted by

hurricanefunnel
(528 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio





@xmangog__beastx said:


@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




copy that








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#10
Posted by

hurricanefunnel
(528 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio





@xmangog__beastx said:


@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




copy that








#10
Posted by

hurricanefunnel
(528 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio





@xmangog__beastx said:


@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




copy that







#10
Posted by

hurricanefunnel
(528 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio







@xmangog__beastx said:


@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




copy that





@xmangog__beastx said:


@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.






@xmangog__beastx said:



@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.





@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




Team 1 due to Orion.









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#11
Posted by

Taskofwar
(595 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio




@hurricanefunnel said:



@xmangog__beastx said:

@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




copy that











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#11
Posted by

Taskofwar
(595 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio




@hurricanefunnel said:



@xmangog__beastx said:

@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




copy that











#11
Posted by

Taskofwar
(595 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio




@hurricanefunnel said:



@xmangog__beastx said:

@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




copy that










#11
Posted by

Taskofwar
(595 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
- Show Bio






@hurricanefunnel said:



@xmangog__beastx said:

@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




copy that








@hurricanefunnel said:



@xmangog__beastx said:

@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




copy that






@hurricanefunnel said:




@xmangog__beastx said:

@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




copy that





@xmangog__beastx said:

@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.






@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.





@cognitive said:

Team 1 due to Orion.




Team 1 due to Orion.









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#12
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Nefaria drains his energy quickly during battle against powerful opponents like Thor, Iron Man and Vision. Even when he was written at his most powerful, Nefaria drained more energy than he could recover it. Orion's Astro Force is also more than capable of KOing Nefaria given that it can knock out Superman and cause global tremors from being fired at the moon.








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#12
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Nefaria drains his energy quickly during battle against powerful opponents like Thor, Iron Man and Vision. Even when he was written at his most powerful, Nefaria drained more energy than he could recover it. Orion's Astro Force is also more than capable of KOing Nefaria given that it can knock out Superman and cause global tremors from being fired at the moon.








#12
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Nefaria drains his energy quickly during battle against powerful opponents like Thor, Iron Man and Vision. Even when he was written at his most powerful, Nefaria drained more energy than he could recover it. Orion's Astro Force is also more than capable of KOing Nefaria given that it can knock out Superman and cause global tremors from being fired at the moon.







#12
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio




@tifalockhart: Nefaria drains his energy quickly during battle against powerful opponents like Thor, Iron Man and Vision. Even when he was written at his most powerful, Nefaria drained more energy than he could recover it. Orion's Astro Force is also more than capable of KOing Nefaria given that it can knock out Superman and cause global tremors from being fired at the moon.









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#13
Posted by

Eeef
(1368 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion solostomps.








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#13
Posted by

Eeef
(1368 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion solostomps.








#13
Posted by

Eeef
(1368 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion solostomps.







#13
Posted by

Eeef
(1368 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio




Orion solostomps.









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#14
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: Fair point, but I'm not convinced Orion won't be eating dirt before then.








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#14
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: Fair point, but I'm not convinced Orion won't be eating dirt before then.








#14
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: Fair point, but I'm not convinced Orion won't be eating dirt before then.







#14
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio




@lvenger: Fair point, but I'm not convinced Orion won't be eating dirt before then.









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#15
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Because of Nefaria's fight with Thor? Blocking Mjolnir is neat but Thor was still in the game after that. I'm not convinced Nefaria's physicals are consistently as impressive as the Superman/Hulk/Thor tier.








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#15
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Because of Nefaria's fight with Thor? Blocking Mjolnir is neat but Thor was still in the game after that. I'm not convinced Nefaria's physicals are consistently as impressive as the Superman/Hulk/Thor tier.








#15
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Because of Nefaria's fight with Thor? Blocking Mjolnir is neat but Thor was still in the game after that. I'm not convinced Nefaria's physicals are consistently as impressive as the Superman/Hulk/Thor tier.







#15
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio




@tifalockhart: Because of Nefaria's fight with Thor? Blocking Mjolnir is neat but Thor was still in the game after that. I'm not convinced Nefaria's physicals are consistently as impressive as the Superman/Hulk/Thor tier.









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#16
Edited by
Stalin-Is-Steel
(3586 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion stomps, Nefaria at his maximum best (as stated by himself) was throwing a mountain which isn't that impressive in comparison tbh.








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#16
Edited by
Stalin-Is-Steel
(3586 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion stomps, Nefaria at his maximum best (as stated by himself) was throwing a mountain which isn't that impressive in comparison tbh.








#16
Edited by
Stalin-Is-Steel
(3586 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Orion stomps, Nefaria at his maximum best (as stated by himself) was throwing a mountain which isn't that impressive in comparison tbh.







#16
Edited by
Stalin-Is-Steel
(3586 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio




Orion stomps, Nefaria at his maximum best (as stated by himself) was throwing a mountain which isn't that impressive in comparison tbh.









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#17
Edited by
TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: because of Busiek's run where the Avengers winning back in the '70's was a "fluke" according to iirc Wasp and Mjolnir bounced off his chest in a flashback panel.


He may have had poor showings later but back when I was reading he took on the Avengers and the Thunderbolts simultaneously.








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#17
Edited by
TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: because of Busiek's run where the Avengers winning back in the '70's was a "fluke" according to iirc Wasp and Mjolnir bounced off his chest in a flashback panel.


He may have had poor showings later but back when I was reading he took on the Avengers and the Thunderbolts simultaneously.








#17
Edited by
TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: because of Busiek's run where the Avengers winning back in the '70's was a "fluke" according to iirc Wasp and Mjolnir bounced off his chest in a flashback panel.


He may have had poor showings later but back when I was reading he took on the Avengers and the Thunderbolts simultaneously.







#17
Edited by
TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio




@lvenger: because of Busiek's run where the Avengers winning back in the '70's was a "fluke" according to iirc Wasp and Mjolnir bounced off his chest in a flashback panel.


He may have had poor showings later but back when I was reading he took on the Avengers and the Thunderbolts simultaneously.









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#18
Edited by
The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@stalin-is-steel: Nefaria's powers were weakening when he lifted that mountain.


Also, Nefaria got more powerful after his fight in Iron Man Annual 1999.


In The Avengers Vol. 3 #34 Iron Man said that "he's more powerful than ever!".








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#18
Edited by
The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@stalin-is-steel: Nefaria's powers were weakening when he lifted that mountain.


Also, Nefaria got more powerful after his fight in Iron Man Annual 1999.


In The Avengers Vol. 3 #34 Iron Man said that "he's more powerful than ever!".








#18
Edited by
The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@stalin-is-steel: Nefaria's powers were weakening when he lifted that mountain.


Also, Nefaria got more powerful after his fight in Iron Man Annual 1999.


In The Avengers Vol. 3 #34 Iron Man said that "he's more powerful than ever!".







#18
Edited by
The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio




@stalin-is-steel: Nefaria's powers were weakening when he lifted that mountain.


Also, Nefaria got more powerful after his fight in Iron Man Annual 1999.


In The Avengers Vol. 3 #34 Iron Man said that "he's more powerful than ever!".









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#19
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Ah I knew you were going to bring that up. Tell me, who was the most powerful Avenger or Thunderbolt there? Who actually compared to Orion and Captain Marvel in terms of strength, let alone Hulk and Thor? I know all the characters that Nefaria fought but I want to hear your thoughts on why this is such a good showing.








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#19
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Ah I knew you were going to bring that up. Tell me, who was the most powerful Avenger or Thunderbolt there? Who actually compared to Orion and Captain Marvel in terms of strength, let alone Hulk and Thor? I know all the characters that Nefaria fought but I want to hear your thoughts on why this is such a good showing.








#19
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Ah I knew you were going to bring that up. Tell me, who was the most powerful Avenger or Thunderbolt there? Who actually compared to Orion and Captain Marvel in terms of strength, let alone Hulk and Thor? I know all the characters that Nefaria fought but I want to hear your thoughts on why this is such a good showing.







#19
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio




@tifalockhart: Ah I knew you were going to bring that up. Tell me, who was the most powerful Avenger or Thunderbolt there? Who actually compared to Orion and Captain Marvel in terms of strength, let alone Hulk and Thor? I know all the characters that Nefaria fought but I want to hear your thoughts on why this is such a good showing.









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#20
Posted by

MrStranger
(1472 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1.








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#20
Posted by

MrStranger
(1472 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1.








#20
Posted by

MrStranger
(1472 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1.







#20
Posted by

MrStranger
(1472 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio




Team 1.









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#21
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: I'll have to reread the arc. Brb.








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#21
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: I'll have to reread the arc. Brb.








#21
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: I'll have to reread the arc. Brb.







#21
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 5 days ago
- Show Bio




@lvenger: I'll have to reread the arc. Brb.









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#22
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 4 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: alright I'm back. I'm no Marvel expert, but I'd guess Scarlet Witch was the most powerful member he took on. As far as fighting guys on par with Thor, no, he didn't encounter any in that instance, but Iron Man especially under Busiek isn't far behind and She-Hulk, Warbird, and Vision aren't exactly lightweights. He was simultaneously tanking their combined hits, among others. It wasn't just physical might they tossed at him either, he proved resistant to Scarlet Witch's magic, Songbird encasing him in a sound construct stronger than steel, and even Vision solidifying inside him.


I am genuinely baffled as to why he is being treated as a weak link here. If he was a tier below Thor then why didn't Thor solo him? If he was a tier below Thor why would it take three WEEKS of fighting for Iron Man and company to wear him down? And that still doesn't account for the stealth retcon of Mjolnir being no-sold by his chest.


Maybe he doesn't solo and I was wrong about that but he's being dismissed rather unfairly. Thor vs. Orion would be a rough fight yet the majority is acting like Orion would stomp The Count who at least rivals Thor.








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#22
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 4 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: alright I'm back. I'm no Marvel expert, but I'd guess Scarlet Witch was the most powerful member he took on. As far as fighting guys on par with Thor, no, he didn't encounter any in that instance, but Iron Man especially under Busiek isn't far behind and She-Hulk, Warbird, and Vision aren't exactly lightweights. He was simultaneously tanking their combined hits, among others. It wasn't just physical might they tossed at him either, he proved resistant to Scarlet Witch's magic, Songbird encasing him in a sound construct stronger than steel, and even Vision solidifying inside him.


I am genuinely baffled as to why he is being treated as a weak link here. If he was a tier below Thor then why didn't Thor solo him? If he was a tier below Thor why would it take three WEEKS of fighting for Iron Man and company to wear him down? And that still doesn't account for the stealth retcon of Mjolnir being no-sold by his chest.


Maybe he doesn't solo and I was wrong about that but he's being dismissed rather unfairly. Thor vs. Orion would be a rough fight yet the majority is acting like Orion would stomp The Count who at least rivals Thor.








#22
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 4 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: alright I'm back. I'm no Marvel expert, but I'd guess Scarlet Witch was the most powerful member he took on. As far as fighting guys on par with Thor, no, he didn't encounter any in that instance, but Iron Man especially under Busiek isn't far behind and She-Hulk, Warbird, and Vision aren't exactly lightweights. He was simultaneously tanking their combined hits, among others. It wasn't just physical might they tossed at him either, he proved resistant to Scarlet Witch's magic, Songbird encasing him in a sound construct stronger than steel, and even Vision solidifying inside him.


I am genuinely baffled as to why he is being treated as a weak link here. If he was a tier below Thor then why didn't Thor solo him? If he was a tier below Thor why would it take three WEEKS of fighting for Iron Man and company to wear him down? And that still doesn't account for the stealth retcon of Mjolnir being no-sold by his chest.


Maybe he doesn't solo and I was wrong about that but he's being dismissed rather unfairly. Thor vs. Orion would be a rough fight yet the majority is acting like Orion would stomp The Count who at least rivals Thor.







#22
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 4 days ago
- Show Bio




@lvenger: alright I'm back. I'm no Marvel expert, but I'd guess Scarlet Witch was the most powerful member he took on. As far as fighting guys on par with Thor, no, he didn't encounter any in that instance, but Iron Man especially under Busiek isn't far behind and She-Hulk, Warbird, and Vision aren't exactly lightweights. He was simultaneously tanking their combined hits, among others. It wasn't just physical might they tossed at him either, he proved resistant to Scarlet Witch's magic, Songbird encasing him in a sound construct stronger than steel, and even Vision solidifying inside him.


I am genuinely baffled as to why he is being treated as a weak link here. If he was a tier below Thor then why didn't Thor solo him? If he was a tier below Thor why would it take three WEEKS of fighting for Iron Man and company to wear him down? And that still doesn't account for the stealth retcon of Mjolnir being no-sold by his chest.


Maybe he doesn't solo and I was wrong about that but he's being dismissed rather unfairly. Thor vs. Orion would be a rough fight yet the majority is acting like Orion would stomp The Count who at least rivals Thor.









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#23
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Scarlet Witch is the obvious choice for damage output but Thor was tanking Scarlet Witch's hex blasts along with her and Havok's blasts combined. She had to BFR him as there was no defeating him in direct conflict according to the narration. So Thor has Nefaria outperformed against Wanda. Iron Man, Vision, She Hulk and Warbird are all mid tiers and they were the only ones that were even remotely a threat to Nefaria before and for comparison, Pre Core Breach Hulk was stated to be more powerful than Iron Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch & Ionic Wonder Man combined.


No Caption Provided

This is the same Wonder Man who could turn the tide against Nefaria when free from his control yet Hulk is more powerful than him and 3 other mid tiers. Breaking a stronger than steel construct is also child's play to a high tier


Plot and because the writers intended for him to be a match for Thor. However, Thor has gained more feats over the years of his appearance that put him above Nefaria on a consistent basis and Nefaria was losing power rapidly fighting someone as powerful as Thor. Which means fighting Billy or Orion will drain his power at a near, if not equal rate. The stealth retcon flies in the face of their actual fight so it can be dismissed pretty easily.


Because Nefaria only has a few feats that are actually impressive and years worth of jobbing. Thor and Hulk have long since outclassed Nefaria with their feats whereas the Count doesn't have the showings to contend with them. I'll quote from a cancelled Hulk vs Count Nefaria CAV to demonstrate why Nefaria's energy stamina is a significant disadvantage for him.





Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:


No Caption Provided

They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;


  1. Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...

  2. Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.










Avatar image for lvenger






#23
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Scarlet Witch is the obvious choice for damage output but Thor was tanking Scarlet Witch's hex blasts along with her and Havok's blasts combined. She had to BFR him as there was no defeating him in direct conflict according to the narration. So Thor has Nefaria outperformed against Wanda. Iron Man, Vision, She Hulk and Warbird are all mid tiers and they were the only ones that were even remotely a threat to Nefaria before and for comparison, Pre Core Breach Hulk was stated to be more powerful than Iron Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch & Ionic Wonder Man combined.


No Caption Provided

This is the same Wonder Man who could turn the tide against Nefaria when free from his control yet Hulk is more powerful than him and 3 other mid tiers. Breaking a stronger than steel construct is also child's play to a high tier


Plot and because the writers intended for him to be a match for Thor. However, Thor has gained more feats over the years of his appearance that put him above Nefaria on a consistent basis and Nefaria was losing power rapidly fighting someone as powerful as Thor. Which means fighting Billy or Orion will drain his power at a near, if not equal rate. The stealth retcon flies in the face of their actual fight so it can be dismissed pretty easily.


Because Nefaria only has a few feats that are actually impressive and years worth of jobbing. Thor and Hulk have long since outclassed Nefaria with their feats whereas the Count doesn't have the showings to contend with them. I'll quote from a cancelled Hulk vs Count Nefaria CAV to demonstrate why Nefaria's energy stamina is a significant disadvantage for him.





Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:


No Caption Provided

They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;


  1. Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...

  2. Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.










#23
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Scarlet Witch is the obvious choice for damage output but Thor was tanking Scarlet Witch's hex blasts along with her and Havok's blasts combined. She had to BFR him as there was no defeating him in direct conflict according to the narration. So Thor has Nefaria outperformed against Wanda. Iron Man, Vision, She Hulk and Warbird are all mid tiers and they were the only ones that were even remotely a threat to Nefaria before and for comparison, Pre Core Breach Hulk was stated to be more powerful than Iron Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch & Ionic Wonder Man combined.


No Caption Provided

This is the same Wonder Man who could turn the tide against Nefaria when free from his control yet Hulk is more powerful than him and 3 other mid tiers. Breaking a stronger than steel construct is also child's play to a high tier


Plot and because the writers intended for him to be a match for Thor. However, Thor has gained more feats over the years of his appearance that put him above Nefaria on a consistent basis and Nefaria was losing power rapidly fighting someone as powerful as Thor. Which means fighting Billy or Orion will drain his power at a near, if not equal rate. The stealth retcon flies in the face of their actual fight so it can be dismissed pretty easily.


Because Nefaria only has a few feats that are actually impressive and years worth of jobbing. Thor and Hulk have long since outclassed Nefaria with their feats whereas the Count doesn't have the showings to contend with them. I'll quote from a cancelled Hulk vs Count Nefaria CAV to demonstrate why Nefaria's energy stamina is a significant disadvantage for him.





Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:


No Caption Provided

They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;


  1. Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...

  2. Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.









#23
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio




@tifalockhart: Scarlet Witch is the obvious choice for damage output but Thor was tanking Scarlet Witch's hex blasts along with her and Havok's blasts combined. She had to BFR him as there was no defeating him in direct conflict according to the narration. So Thor has Nefaria outperformed against Wanda. Iron Man, Vision, She Hulk and Warbird are all mid tiers and they were the only ones that were even remotely a threat to Nefaria before and for comparison, Pre Core Breach Hulk was stated to be more powerful than Iron Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch & Ionic Wonder Man combined.


No Caption Provided

This is the same Wonder Man who could turn the tide against Nefaria when free from his control yet Hulk is more powerful than him and 3 other mid tiers. Breaking a stronger than steel construct is also child's play to a high tier


Plot and because the writers intended for him to be a match for Thor. However, Thor has gained more feats over the years of his appearance that put him above Nefaria on a consistent basis and Nefaria was losing power rapidly fighting someone as powerful as Thor. Which means fighting Billy or Orion will drain his power at a near, if not equal rate. The stealth retcon flies in the face of their actual fight so it can be dismissed pretty easily.


Because Nefaria only has a few feats that are actually impressive and years worth of jobbing. Thor and Hulk have long since outclassed Nefaria with their feats whereas the Count doesn't have the showings to contend with them. I'll quote from a cancelled Hulk vs Count Nefaria CAV to demonstrate why Nefaria's energy stamina is a significant disadvantage for him.





Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:


No Caption Provided

They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;


  1. Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...

  2. Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.








Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:


No Caption Provided

They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;


  1. Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...

  2. Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.







Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:


No Caption Provided

They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;


  1. Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...

  2. Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.









Avatar image for rhistr



#24
Posted by

rhistr
(347 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1. Give Thor a better teammate.








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#24
Posted by

rhistr
(347 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1. Give Thor a better teammate.








#24
Posted by

rhistr
(347 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1. Give Thor a better teammate.







#24
Posted by

rhistr
(347 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio




Team 1. Give Thor a better teammate.









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#25
Posted by

HeirToTheKingdom
(9201 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 2.








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#25
Posted by

HeirToTheKingdom
(9201 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 2.








#25
Posted by

HeirToTheKingdom
(9201 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 2.







#25
Posted by

HeirToTheKingdom
(9201 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio




Team 2.









Avatar image for tifalockhart



#26
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: Define "tanking." If Thor was no-selling the combined attacks of Scarlet Witch and Havok I'll have to concede the point.


Thor is not Hulk. I also don't recall Wonder Man posing a significant threat to Nefaria in a physical sense either (but my copy of issue #33 is missing so I could be wrong).


We don't know how much stronger than steel the construct was, but even Etrigan had trouble when his arms were pinned by a car wrapped around him. Nefaria was encased with the stuff and broke out with no apparent strain.


Dismissing a feat just because you don't agree with it leads nowhere. If we're going by volume of feats, then Orion has Yuga Khan beat.


Why do you disagree with the three weeks assessment?








Avatar image for tifalockhart






#26
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: Define "tanking." If Thor was no-selling the combined attacks of Scarlet Witch and Havok I'll have to concede the point.


Thor is not Hulk. I also don't recall Wonder Man posing a significant threat to Nefaria in a physical sense either (but my copy of issue #33 is missing so I could be wrong).


We don't know how much stronger than steel the construct was, but even Etrigan had trouble when his arms were pinned by a car wrapped around him. Nefaria was encased with the stuff and broke out with no apparent strain.


Dismissing a feat just because you don't agree with it leads nowhere. If we're going by volume of feats, then Orion has Yuga Khan beat.


Why do you disagree with the three weeks assessment?








#26
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: Define "tanking." If Thor was no-selling the combined attacks of Scarlet Witch and Havok I'll have to concede the point.


Thor is not Hulk. I also don't recall Wonder Man posing a significant threat to Nefaria in a physical sense either (but my copy of issue #33 is missing so I could be wrong).


We don't know how much stronger than steel the construct was, but even Etrigan had trouble when his arms were pinned by a car wrapped around him. Nefaria was encased with the stuff and broke out with no apparent strain.


Dismissing a feat just because you don't agree with it leads nowhere. If we're going by volume of feats, then Orion has Yuga Khan beat.


Why do you disagree with the three weeks assessment?







#26
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio




@lvenger: Define "tanking." If Thor was no-selling the combined attacks of Scarlet Witch and Havok I'll have to concede the point.


Thor is not Hulk. I also don't recall Wonder Man posing a significant threat to Nefaria in a physical sense either (but my copy of issue #33 is missing so I could be wrong).


We don't know how much stronger than steel the construct was, but even Etrigan had trouble when his arms were pinned by a car wrapped around him. Nefaria was encased with the stuff and broke out with no apparent strain.


Dismissing a feat just because you don't agree with it leads nowhere. If we're going by volume of feats, then Orion has Yuga Khan beat.


Why do you disagree with the three weeks assessment?









Avatar image for rampagethefirst



#27
Posted by

RampageTheFirst
(3827 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 with Orion as MVP.








Avatar image for rampagethefirst






#27
Posted by

RampageTheFirst
(3827 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 with Orion as MVP.








#27
Posted by

RampageTheFirst
(3827 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio


Team 1 with Orion as MVP.







#27
Posted by

RampageTheFirst
(3827 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
- Show Bio




Team 1 with Orion as MVP.









Avatar image for ichinisanji



#28
Posted by

IchiNiSanji
(444 posts)
- 1 month, 2 days ago
- Show Bio


Nefaria lacks endurance to be useful past a point in this battle.








Avatar image for ichinisanji






#28
Posted by

IchiNiSanji
(444 posts)
- 1 month, 2 days ago
- Show Bio


Nefaria lacks endurance to be useful past a point in this battle.








#28
Posted by

IchiNiSanji
(444 posts)
- 1 month, 2 days ago
- Show Bio


Nefaria lacks endurance to be useful past a point in this battle.







#28
Posted by

IchiNiSanji
(444 posts)
- 1 month, 2 days ago
- Show Bio




Nefaria lacks endurance to be useful past a point in this battle.









Avatar image for lvenger



#29
Edited by
Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 16 hours ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Well I'll post the scans from Uncanny Avengers #4 so you can see exactly how Thor fared. I think it's pretty hard to deny that what Thor is doing this isn't tanking these energy blasts.


Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

In contrast, a less skilled and experienced Wanda was able to hurt Nefaria with her chaos magic.


That was during their first fight where Wonder Man wasn't a being of pure Ionic energy yet. When Simon was freed from Nefaria's control, he posed a much greater threat than he did back then.


It's still unquantifiable and still irrelevant given that stronger than steel is a vague statement. Destroying secondary adamantium would be a better measurement of strength but breaking something stronger than steel is something mid tiers should be able to do.


That's not what I'm saying though. I'm saying it can be dismissed because it flies in the face of how the fight actually went where Thor was the only Avenger who Nefaria was actually scared of and could consistently harm the Count.


Because to paraphrase the argument from before, Nefaria will be exerting significantly more effort against Orion and Captain Marvel than he would against a group of street levellers and mid tiers. That means he'll be expending energy and getting weaker and weaker whilst the fight progresses. Also, even if the energy drain wasn't a factor, Orion and Marvel outclass him by comparative feats.








Avatar image for lvenger






#29
Edited by
Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 16 hours ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Well I'll post the scans from Uncanny Avengers #4 so you can see exactly how Thor fared. I think it's pretty hard to deny that what Thor is doing this isn't tanking these energy blasts.


Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

In contrast, a less skilled and experienced Wanda was able to hurt Nefaria with her chaos magic.


That was during their first fight where Wonder Man wasn't a being of pure Ionic energy yet. When Simon was freed from Nefaria's control, he posed a much greater threat than he did back then.


It's still unquantifiable and still irrelevant given that stronger than steel is a vague statement. Destroying secondary adamantium would be a better measurement of strength but breaking something stronger than steel is something mid tiers should be able to do.


That's not what I'm saying though. I'm saying it can be dismissed because it flies in the face of how the fight actually went where Thor was the only Avenger who Nefaria was actually scared of and could consistently harm the Count.


Because to paraphrase the argument from before, Nefaria will be exerting significantly more effort against Orion and Captain Marvel than he would against a group of street levellers and mid tiers. That means he'll be expending energy and getting weaker and weaker whilst the fight progresses. Also, even if the energy drain wasn't a factor, Orion and Marvel outclass him by comparative feats.








#29
Edited by
Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 16 hours ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Well I'll post the scans from Uncanny Avengers #4 so you can see exactly how Thor fared. I think it's pretty hard to deny that what Thor is doing this isn't tanking these energy blasts.


Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

In contrast, a less skilled and experienced Wanda was able to hurt Nefaria with her chaos magic.


That was during their first fight where Wonder Man wasn't a being of pure Ionic energy yet. When Simon was freed from Nefaria's control, he posed a much greater threat than he did back then.


It's still unquantifiable and still irrelevant given that stronger than steel is a vague statement. Destroying secondary adamantium would be a better measurement of strength but breaking something stronger than steel is something mid tiers should be able to do.


That's not what I'm saying though. I'm saying it can be dismissed because it flies in the face of how the fight actually went where Thor was the only Avenger who Nefaria was actually scared of and could consistently harm the Count.


Because to paraphrase the argument from before, Nefaria will be exerting significantly more effort against Orion and Captain Marvel than he would against a group of street levellers and mid tiers. That means he'll be expending energy and getting weaker and weaker whilst the fight progresses. Also, even if the energy drain wasn't a factor, Orion and Marvel outclass him by comparative feats.







#29
Edited by
Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 16 hours ago
- Show Bio




@tifalockhart: Well I'll post the scans from Uncanny Avengers #4 so you can see exactly how Thor fared. I think it's pretty hard to deny that what Thor is doing this isn't tanking these energy blasts.


Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

In contrast, a less skilled and experienced Wanda was able to hurt Nefaria with her chaos magic.


That was during their first fight where Wonder Man wasn't a being of pure Ionic energy yet. When Simon was freed from Nefaria's control, he posed a much greater threat than he did back then.


It's still unquantifiable and still irrelevant given that stronger than steel is a vague statement. Destroying secondary adamantium would be a better measurement of strength but breaking something stronger than steel is something mid tiers should be able to do.


That's not what I'm saying though. I'm saying it can be dismissed because it flies in the face of how the fight actually went where Thor was the only Avenger who Nefaria was actually scared of and could consistently harm the Count.


Because to paraphrase the argument from before, Nefaria will be exerting significantly more effort against Orion and Captain Marvel than he would against a group of street levellers and mid tiers. That means he'll be expending energy and getting weaker and weaker whilst the fight progresses. Also, even if the energy drain wasn't a factor, Orion and Marvel outclass him by comparative feats.









Avatar image for tifalockhart



#30
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: In that case I've got no choice but to concede Thor has more durability than Nefaria.








Avatar image for tifalockhart






#30
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: In that case I've got no choice but to concede Thor has more durability than Nefaria.








#30
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: In that case I've got no choice but to concede Thor has more durability than Nefaria.







#30
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
- Show Bio




@lvenger: In that case I've got no choice but to concede Thor has more durability than Nefaria.









Avatar image for ancient_0f_days



#31
Posted by

Ancient_0f_Days
(16995 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
- Show Bio


Would it be a stretch to say Orion can one shot Nefaria with the Astro Force then go on the fight Thor considering his speed in the Astro-Harness? Honestly, he's a tier above him and if we look into his Astro Force feats, he can damn near continent bust, not even considering the sheer size of Apokolips and the amount of the planet Orion was destroying. Not to mention how he one shotted Kalibak, Mantis and Superman by flying into them. If Orion can one shot Nefaria before Thor can land a hit....Orion can solo








Avatar image for ancient_0f_days






#31
Posted by

Ancient_0f_Days
(16995 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
- Show Bio


Would it be a stretch to say Orion can one shot Nefaria with the Astro Force then go on the fight Thor considering his speed in the Astro-Harness? Honestly, he's a tier above him and if we look into his Astro Force feats, he can damn near continent bust, not even considering the sheer size of Apokolips and the amount of the planet Orion was destroying. Not to mention how he one shotted Kalibak, Mantis and Superman by flying into them. If Orion can one shot Nefaria before Thor can land a hit....Orion can solo








#31
Posted by

Ancient_0f_Days
(16995 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
- Show Bio


Would it be a stretch to say Orion can one shot Nefaria with the Astro Force then go on the fight Thor considering his speed in the Astro-Harness? Honestly, he's a tier above him and if we look into his Astro Force feats, he can damn near continent bust, not even considering the sheer size of Apokolips and the amount of the planet Orion was destroying. Not to mention how he one shotted Kalibak, Mantis and Superman by flying into them. If Orion can one shot Nefaria before Thor can land a hit....Orion can solo







#31
Posted by

Ancient_0f_Days
(16995 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
- Show Bio




Would it be a stretch to say Orion can one shot Nefaria with the Astro Force then go on the fight Thor considering his speed in the Astro-Harness? Honestly, he's a tier above him and if we look into his Astro Force feats, he can damn near continent bust, not even considering the sheer size of Apokolips and the amount of the planet Orion was destroying. Not to mention how he one shotted Kalibak, Mantis and Superman by flying into them. If Orion can one shot Nefaria before Thor can land a hit....Orion can solo









Avatar image for lvenger



#32
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 30 days, 8 hours ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Thanks for the positive discussion though, I appreciated the reasonable counter arguments you put up, I could definitely see where you were coming from regarding Nefaria.








Avatar image for lvenger






#32
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 30 days, 8 hours ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Thanks for the positive discussion though, I appreciated the reasonable counter arguments you put up, I could definitely see where you were coming from regarding Nefaria.








#32
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 30 days, 8 hours ago
- Show Bio


@tifalockhart: Thanks for the positive discussion though, I appreciated the reasonable counter arguments you put up, I could definitely see where you were coming from regarding Nefaria.







#32
Posted by

Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 30 days, 8 hours ago
- Show Bio




@tifalockhart: Thanks for the positive discussion though, I appreciated the reasonable counter arguments you put up, I could definitely see where you were coming from regarding Nefaria.









Avatar image for tifalockhart



#33
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 27 days, 23 hours ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: Thanks. Despite adamantly disagreeing with you on a few occasions you definitely know how to debate properly.








Avatar image for tifalockhart






#33
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 27 days, 23 hours ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: Thanks. Despite adamantly disagreeing with you on a few occasions you definitely know how to debate properly.








#33
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 27 days, 23 hours ago
- Show Bio


@lvenger: Thanks. Despite adamantly disagreeing with you on a few occasions you definitely know how to debate properly.







#33
Posted by

TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 27 days, 23 hours ago
- Show Bio




@lvenger: Thanks. Despite adamantly disagreeing with you on a few occasions you definitely know how to debate properly.









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