Orion & Captain Marvel (DC) vs. Thor & Count Nefaria
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Orion & Captain Marvel (DC) vs. Thor & Count Nefaria
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#1
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The_Dog_of_War
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- CIS off
- No Prep
- No BFR
- DC team is Pre-New 52
- Both teams are going all out
- Winner by KO or incapacitation
- Fight takes place on New Genesis
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#3
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#4
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Cognitive
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Team 1 due to Orion.
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#6
Edited by
xMangog__Beastx
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@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
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#7
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Kevd4wg
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Team 1 due to Orion.
This, also Nefaria is one step above Featless
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#8
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The_Dog_of_War
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Callouts:
Thor:
@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf
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#9
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TifaLockhart
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Nefaria solos.
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#10
Posted by
hurricanefunnel
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@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
copy that
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#11
Posted by
Taskofwar
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@hurricanefunnel said:
@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
copy that
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#12
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Nefaria drains his energy quickly during battle against powerful opponents like Thor, Iron Man and Vision. Even when he was written at his most powerful, Nefaria drained more energy than he could recover it. Orion's Astro Force is also more than capable of KOing Nefaria given that it can knock out Superman and cause global tremors from being fired at the moon.
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#13
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Eeef
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Orion solostomps.
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#14
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TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: Fair point, but I'm not convinced Orion won't be eating dirt before then.
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#15
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Because of Nefaria's fight with Thor? Blocking Mjolnir is neat but Thor was still in the game after that. I'm not convinced Nefaria's physicals are consistently as impressive as the Superman/Hulk/Thor tier.
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#16
Edited by
Stalin-Is-Steel
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Orion stomps, Nefaria at his maximum best (as stated by himself) was throwing a mountain which isn't that impressive in comparison tbh.
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#17
Edited by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: because of Busiek's run where the Avengers winning back in the '70's was a "fluke" according to iirc Wasp and Mjolnir bounced off his chest in a flashback panel.
He may have had poor showings later but back when I was reading he took on the Avengers and the Thunderbolts simultaneously.
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#18
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The_Dog_of_War
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@stalin-is-steel: Nefaria's powers were weakening when he lifted that mountain.
Also, Nefaria got more powerful after his fight in Iron Man Annual 1999.
In The Avengers Vol. 3 #34 Iron Man said that "he's more powerful than ever!".
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#19
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Ah I knew you were going to bring that up. Tell me, who was the most powerful Avenger or Thunderbolt there? Who actually compared to Orion and Captain Marvel in terms of strength, let alone Hulk and Thor? I know all the characters that Nefaria fought but I want to hear your thoughts on why this is such a good showing.
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#20
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MrStranger
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Team 1.
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#21
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: I'll have to reread the arc. Brb.
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#22
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: alright I'm back. I'm no Marvel expert, but I'd guess Scarlet Witch was the most powerful member he took on. As far as fighting guys on par with Thor, no, he didn't encounter any in that instance, but Iron Man especially under Busiek isn't far behind and She-Hulk, Warbird, and Vision aren't exactly lightweights. He was simultaneously tanking their combined hits, among others. It wasn't just physical might they tossed at him either, he proved resistant to Scarlet Witch's magic, Songbird encasing him in a sound construct stronger than steel, and even Vision solidifying inside him.
I am genuinely baffled as to why he is being treated as a weak link here. If he was a tier below Thor then why didn't Thor solo him? If he was a tier below Thor why would it take three WEEKS of fighting for Iron Man and company to wear him down? And that still doesn't account for the stealth retcon of Mjolnir being no-sold by his chest.
Maybe he doesn't solo and I was wrong about that but he's being dismissed rather unfairly. Thor vs. Orion would be a rough fight yet the majority is acting like Orion would stomp The Count who at least rivals Thor.
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#23
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Scarlet Witch is the obvious choice for damage output but Thor was tanking Scarlet Witch's hex blasts along with her and Havok's blasts combined. She had to BFR him as there was no defeating him in direct conflict according to the narration. So Thor has Nefaria outperformed against Wanda. Iron Man, Vision, She Hulk and Warbird are all mid tiers and they were the only ones that were even remotely a threat to Nefaria before and for comparison, Pre Core Breach Hulk was stated to be more powerful than Iron Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch & Ionic Wonder Man combined.
This is the same Wonder Man who could turn the tide against Nefaria when free from his control yet Hulk is more powerful than him and 3 other mid tiers. Breaking a stronger than steel construct is also child's play to a high tier
Plot and because the writers intended for him to be a match for Thor. However, Thor has gained more feats over the years of his appearance that put him above Nefaria on a consistent basis and Nefaria was losing power rapidly fighting someone as powerful as Thor. Which means fighting Billy or Orion will drain his power at a near, if not equal rate. The stealth retcon flies in the face of their actual fight so it can be dismissed pretty easily.
Because Nefaria only has a few feats that are actually impressive and years worth of jobbing. Thor and Hulk have long since outclassed Nefaria with their feats whereas the Count doesn't have the showings to contend with them. I'll quote from a cancelled Hulk vs Count Nefaria CAV to demonstrate why Nefaria's energy stamina is a significant disadvantage for him.
Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:
They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;
- Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...
- Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.
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#24
Posted by
rhistr
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Team 1. Give Thor a better teammate.
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#25
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HeirToTheKingdom
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Team 2.
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#26
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: Define "tanking." If Thor was no-selling the combined attacks of Scarlet Witch and Havok I'll have to concede the point.
Thor is not Hulk. I also don't recall Wonder Man posing a significant threat to Nefaria in a physical sense either (but my copy of issue #33 is missing so I could be wrong).
We don't know how much stronger than steel the construct was, but even Etrigan had trouble when his arms were pinned by a car wrapped around him. Nefaria was encased with the stuff and broke out with no apparent strain.
Dismissing a feat just because you don't agree with it leads nowhere. If we're going by volume of feats, then Orion has Yuga Khan beat.
Why do you disagree with the three weeks assessment?
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#27
Posted by
RampageTheFirst
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Team 1 with Orion as MVP.
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#28
Posted by
IchiNiSanji
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Nefaria lacks endurance to be useful past a point in this battle.
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#29
Edited by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Well I'll post the scans from Uncanny Avengers #4 so you can see exactly how Thor fared. I think it's pretty hard to deny that what Thor is doing this isn't tanking these energy blasts.
In contrast, a less skilled and experienced Wanda was able to hurt Nefaria with her chaos magic.
That was during their first fight where Wonder Man wasn't a being of pure Ionic energy yet. When Simon was freed from Nefaria's control, he posed a much greater threat than he did back then.
It's still unquantifiable and still irrelevant given that stronger than steel is a vague statement. Destroying secondary adamantium would be a better measurement of strength but breaking something stronger than steel is something mid tiers should be able to do.
That's not what I'm saying though. I'm saying it can be dismissed because it flies in the face of how the fight actually went where Thor was the only Avenger who Nefaria was actually scared of and could consistently harm the Count.
Because to paraphrase the argument from before, Nefaria will be exerting significantly more effort against Orion and Captain Marvel than he would against a group of street levellers and mid tiers. That means he'll be expending energy and getting weaker and weaker whilst the fight progresses. Also, even if the energy drain wasn't a factor, Orion and Marvel outclass him by comparative feats.
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#30
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TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: In that case I've got no choice but to concede Thor has more durability than Nefaria.
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#31
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Ancient_0f_Days
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Would it be a stretch to say Orion can one shot Nefaria with the Astro Force then go on the fight Thor considering his speed in the Astro-Harness? Honestly, he's a tier above him and if we look into his Astro Force feats, he can damn near continent bust, not even considering the sheer size of Apokolips and the amount of the planet Orion was destroying. Not to mention how he one shotted Kalibak, Mantis and Superman by flying into them. If Orion can one shot Nefaria before Thor can land a hit....Orion can solo
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#32
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Thanks for the positive discussion though, I appreciated the reasonable counter arguments you put up, I could definitely see where you were coming from regarding Nefaria.
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#33
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: Thanks. Despite adamantly disagreeing with you on a few occasions you definitely know how to debate properly.
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Orion & Captain Marvel (DC) vs. Thor & Count Nefaria
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#1
Posted by
The_Dog_of_War
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- 1 month, 8 days ago
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- CIS off
- No Prep
- No BFR
- DC team is Pre-New 52
- Both teams are going all out
- Winner by KO or incapacitation
- Fight takes place on New Genesis
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#3
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Darth_Nimrod
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Bump
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#4
Posted by
Cognitive
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Team 1 due to Orion.
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#6
Edited by
xMangog__Beastx
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@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
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#7
Posted by
Kevd4wg
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Team 1 due to Orion.
This, also Nefaria is one step above Featless
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#8
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The_Dog_of_War
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Callouts:
Thor:
@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf
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#9
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TifaLockhart
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Nefaria solos.
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#10
Posted by
hurricanefunnel
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@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
copy that
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#11
Posted by
Taskofwar
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@hurricanefunnel said:
@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
copy that
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#12
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Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Nefaria drains his energy quickly during battle against powerful opponents like Thor, Iron Man and Vision. Even when he was written at his most powerful, Nefaria drained more energy than he could recover it. Orion's Astro Force is also more than capable of KOing Nefaria given that it can knock out Superman and cause global tremors from being fired at the moon.
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#13
Posted by
Eeef
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Orion solostomps.
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#14
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: Fair point, but I'm not convinced Orion won't be eating dirt before then.
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#15
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Because of Nefaria's fight with Thor? Blocking Mjolnir is neat but Thor was still in the game after that. I'm not convinced Nefaria's physicals are consistently as impressive as the Superman/Hulk/Thor tier.
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#16
Edited by
Stalin-Is-Steel
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Orion stomps, Nefaria at his maximum best (as stated by himself) was throwing a mountain which isn't that impressive in comparison tbh.
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#17
Edited by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: because of Busiek's run where the Avengers winning back in the '70's was a "fluke" according to iirc Wasp and Mjolnir bounced off his chest in a flashback panel.
He may have had poor showings later but back when I was reading he took on the Avengers and the Thunderbolts simultaneously.
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#18
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The_Dog_of_War
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@stalin-is-steel: Nefaria's powers were weakening when he lifted that mountain.
Also, Nefaria got more powerful after his fight in Iron Man Annual 1999.
In The Avengers Vol. 3 #34 Iron Man said that "he's more powerful than ever!".
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#19
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Ah I knew you were going to bring that up. Tell me, who was the most powerful Avenger or Thunderbolt there? Who actually compared to Orion and Captain Marvel in terms of strength, let alone Hulk and Thor? I know all the characters that Nefaria fought but I want to hear your thoughts on why this is such a good showing.
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#20
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MrStranger
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Team 1.
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#21
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TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: I'll have to reread the arc. Brb.
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#22
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TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: alright I'm back. I'm no Marvel expert, but I'd guess Scarlet Witch was the most powerful member he took on. As far as fighting guys on par with Thor, no, he didn't encounter any in that instance, but Iron Man especially under Busiek isn't far behind and She-Hulk, Warbird, and Vision aren't exactly lightweights. He was simultaneously tanking their combined hits, among others. It wasn't just physical might they tossed at him either, he proved resistant to Scarlet Witch's magic, Songbird encasing him in a sound construct stronger than steel, and even Vision solidifying inside him.
I am genuinely baffled as to why he is being treated as a weak link here. If he was a tier below Thor then why didn't Thor solo him? If he was a tier below Thor why would it take three WEEKS of fighting for Iron Man and company to wear him down? And that still doesn't account for the stealth retcon of Mjolnir being no-sold by his chest.
Maybe he doesn't solo and I was wrong about that but he's being dismissed rather unfairly. Thor vs. Orion would be a rough fight yet the majority is acting like Orion would stomp The Count who at least rivals Thor.
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#23
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Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Scarlet Witch is the obvious choice for damage output but Thor was tanking Scarlet Witch's hex blasts along with her and Havok's blasts combined. She had to BFR him as there was no defeating him in direct conflict according to the narration. So Thor has Nefaria outperformed against Wanda. Iron Man, Vision, She Hulk and Warbird are all mid tiers and they were the only ones that were even remotely a threat to Nefaria before and for comparison, Pre Core Breach Hulk was stated to be more powerful than Iron Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch & Ionic Wonder Man combined.
This is the same Wonder Man who could turn the tide against Nefaria when free from his control yet Hulk is more powerful than him and 3 other mid tiers. Breaking a stronger than steel construct is also child's play to a high tier
Plot and because the writers intended for him to be a match for Thor. However, Thor has gained more feats over the years of his appearance that put him above Nefaria on a consistent basis and Nefaria was losing power rapidly fighting someone as powerful as Thor. Which means fighting Billy or Orion will drain his power at a near, if not equal rate. The stealth retcon flies in the face of their actual fight so it can be dismissed pretty easily.
Because Nefaria only has a few feats that are actually impressive and years worth of jobbing. Thor and Hulk have long since outclassed Nefaria with their feats whereas the Count doesn't have the showings to contend with them. I'll quote from a cancelled Hulk vs Count Nefaria CAV to demonstrate why Nefaria's energy stamina is a significant disadvantage for him.
Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:
They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;
- Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...
- Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.
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#24
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rhistr
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Team 1. Give Thor a better teammate.
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#25
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HeirToTheKingdom
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Team 2.
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#26
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TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: Define "tanking." If Thor was no-selling the combined attacks of Scarlet Witch and Havok I'll have to concede the point.
Thor is not Hulk. I also don't recall Wonder Man posing a significant threat to Nefaria in a physical sense either (but my copy of issue #33 is missing so I could be wrong).
We don't know how much stronger than steel the construct was, but even Etrigan had trouble when his arms were pinned by a car wrapped around him. Nefaria was encased with the stuff and broke out with no apparent strain.
Dismissing a feat just because you don't agree with it leads nowhere. If we're going by volume of feats, then Orion has Yuga Khan beat.
Why do you disagree with the three weeks assessment?
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#27
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RampageTheFirst
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Team 1 with Orion as MVP.
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#28
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IchiNiSanji
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Nefaria lacks endurance to be useful past a point in this battle.
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#29
Edited by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Well I'll post the scans from Uncanny Avengers #4 so you can see exactly how Thor fared. I think it's pretty hard to deny that what Thor is doing this isn't tanking these energy blasts.
In contrast, a less skilled and experienced Wanda was able to hurt Nefaria with her chaos magic.
That was during their first fight where Wonder Man wasn't a being of pure Ionic energy yet. When Simon was freed from Nefaria's control, he posed a much greater threat than he did back then.
It's still unquantifiable and still irrelevant given that stronger than steel is a vague statement. Destroying secondary adamantium would be a better measurement of strength but breaking something stronger than steel is something mid tiers should be able to do.
That's not what I'm saying though. I'm saying it can be dismissed because it flies in the face of how the fight actually went where Thor was the only Avenger who Nefaria was actually scared of and could consistently harm the Count.
Because to paraphrase the argument from before, Nefaria will be exerting significantly more effort against Orion and Captain Marvel than he would against a group of street levellers and mid tiers. That means he'll be expending energy and getting weaker and weaker whilst the fight progresses. Also, even if the energy drain wasn't a factor, Orion and Marvel outclass him by comparative feats.
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#30
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TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: In that case I've got no choice but to concede Thor has more durability than Nefaria.
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#31
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Ancient_0f_Days
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Would it be a stretch to say Orion can one shot Nefaria with the Astro Force then go on the fight Thor considering his speed in the Astro-Harness? Honestly, he's a tier above him and if we look into his Astro Force feats, he can damn near continent bust, not even considering the sheer size of Apokolips and the amount of the planet Orion was destroying. Not to mention how he one shotted Kalibak, Mantis and Superman by flying into them. If Orion can one shot Nefaria before Thor can land a hit....Orion can solo
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#32
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Thanks for the positive discussion though, I appreciated the reasonable counter arguments you put up, I could definitely see where you were coming from regarding Nefaria.
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#33
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TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: Thanks. Despite adamantly disagreeing with you on a few occasions you definitely know how to debate properly.
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Orion & Captain Marvel (DC) vs. Thor & Count Nefaria
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#1
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The_Dog_of_War
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- CIS off
- No Prep
- No BFR
- DC team is Pre-New 52
- Both teams are going all out
- Winner by KO or incapacitation
- Fight takes place on New Genesis
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#3
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Darth_Nimrod
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Bump
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#4
Posted by
Cognitive
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Team 1 due to Orion.
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#6
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xMangog__Beastx
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@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
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#7
Posted by
Kevd4wg
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Team 1 due to Orion.
This, also Nefaria is one step above Featless
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#8
Posted by
The_Dog_of_War
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Callouts:
Thor:
@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf
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#9
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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Nefaria solos.
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#10
Posted by
hurricanefunnel
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@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
copy that
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#11
Posted by
Taskofwar
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@hurricanefunnel said:
@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
copy that
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#12
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Nefaria drains his energy quickly during battle against powerful opponents like Thor, Iron Man and Vision. Even when he was written at his most powerful, Nefaria drained more energy than he could recover it. Orion's Astro Force is also more than capable of KOing Nefaria given that it can knock out Superman and cause global tremors from being fired at the moon.
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#13
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Eeef
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Orion solostomps.
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#14
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TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: Fair point, but I'm not convinced Orion won't be eating dirt before then.
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#15
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Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Because of Nefaria's fight with Thor? Blocking Mjolnir is neat but Thor was still in the game after that. I'm not convinced Nefaria's physicals are consistently as impressive as the Superman/Hulk/Thor tier.
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#16
Edited by
Stalin-Is-Steel
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Orion stomps, Nefaria at his maximum best (as stated by himself) was throwing a mountain which isn't that impressive in comparison tbh.
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#17
Edited by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: because of Busiek's run where the Avengers winning back in the '70's was a "fluke" according to iirc Wasp and Mjolnir bounced off his chest in a flashback panel.
He may have had poor showings later but back when I was reading he took on the Avengers and the Thunderbolts simultaneously.
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#18
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The_Dog_of_War
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@stalin-is-steel: Nefaria's powers were weakening when he lifted that mountain.
Also, Nefaria got more powerful after his fight in Iron Man Annual 1999.
In The Avengers Vol. 3 #34 Iron Man said that "he's more powerful than ever!".
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#19
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Ah I knew you were going to bring that up. Tell me, who was the most powerful Avenger or Thunderbolt there? Who actually compared to Orion and Captain Marvel in terms of strength, let alone Hulk and Thor? I know all the characters that Nefaria fought but I want to hear your thoughts on why this is such a good showing.
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#20
Posted by
MrStranger
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Team 1.
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#21
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: I'll have to reread the arc. Brb.
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#22
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: alright I'm back. I'm no Marvel expert, but I'd guess Scarlet Witch was the most powerful member he took on. As far as fighting guys on par with Thor, no, he didn't encounter any in that instance, but Iron Man especially under Busiek isn't far behind and She-Hulk, Warbird, and Vision aren't exactly lightweights. He was simultaneously tanking their combined hits, among others. It wasn't just physical might they tossed at him either, he proved resistant to Scarlet Witch's magic, Songbird encasing him in a sound construct stronger than steel, and even Vision solidifying inside him.
I am genuinely baffled as to why he is being treated as a weak link here. If he was a tier below Thor then why didn't Thor solo him? If he was a tier below Thor why would it take three WEEKS of fighting for Iron Man and company to wear him down? And that still doesn't account for the stealth retcon of Mjolnir being no-sold by his chest.
Maybe he doesn't solo and I was wrong about that but he's being dismissed rather unfairly. Thor vs. Orion would be a rough fight yet the majority is acting like Orion would stomp The Count who at least rivals Thor.
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#23
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Scarlet Witch is the obvious choice for damage output but Thor was tanking Scarlet Witch's hex blasts along with her and Havok's blasts combined. She had to BFR him as there was no defeating him in direct conflict according to the narration. So Thor has Nefaria outperformed against Wanda. Iron Man, Vision, She Hulk and Warbird are all mid tiers and they were the only ones that were even remotely a threat to Nefaria before and for comparison, Pre Core Breach Hulk was stated to be more powerful than Iron Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch & Ionic Wonder Man combined.
This is the same Wonder Man who could turn the tide against Nefaria when free from his control yet Hulk is more powerful than him and 3 other mid tiers. Breaking a stronger than steel construct is also child's play to a high tier
Plot and because the writers intended for him to be a match for Thor. However, Thor has gained more feats over the years of his appearance that put him above Nefaria on a consistent basis and Nefaria was losing power rapidly fighting someone as powerful as Thor. Which means fighting Billy or Orion will drain his power at a near, if not equal rate. The stealth retcon flies in the face of their actual fight so it can be dismissed pretty easily.
Because Nefaria only has a few feats that are actually impressive and years worth of jobbing. Thor and Hulk have long since outclassed Nefaria with their feats whereas the Count doesn't have the showings to contend with them. I'll quote from a cancelled Hulk vs Count Nefaria CAV to demonstrate why Nefaria's energy stamina is a significant disadvantage for him.
Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:
They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;
- Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...
- Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.
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#24
Posted by
rhistr
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Team 1. Give Thor a better teammate.
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#25
Posted by
HeirToTheKingdom
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Team 2.
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#26
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: Define "tanking." If Thor was no-selling the combined attacks of Scarlet Witch and Havok I'll have to concede the point.
Thor is not Hulk. I also don't recall Wonder Man posing a significant threat to Nefaria in a physical sense either (but my copy of issue #33 is missing so I could be wrong).
We don't know how much stronger than steel the construct was, but even Etrigan had trouble when his arms were pinned by a car wrapped around him. Nefaria was encased with the stuff and broke out with no apparent strain.
Dismissing a feat just because you don't agree with it leads nowhere. If we're going by volume of feats, then Orion has Yuga Khan beat.
Why do you disagree with the three weeks assessment?
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#27
Posted by
RampageTheFirst
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Team 1 with Orion as MVP.
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#28
Posted by
IchiNiSanji
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Nefaria lacks endurance to be useful past a point in this battle.
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#29
Edited by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Well I'll post the scans from Uncanny Avengers #4 so you can see exactly how Thor fared. I think it's pretty hard to deny that what Thor is doing this isn't tanking these energy blasts.
In contrast, a less skilled and experienced Wanda was able to hurt Nefaria with her chaos magic.
That was during their first fight where Wonder Man wasn't a being of pure Ionic energy yet. When Simon was freed from Nefaria's control, he posed a much greater threat than he did back then.
It's still unquantifiable and still irrelevant given that stronger than steel is a vague statement. Destroying secondary adamantium would be a better measurement of strength but breaking something stronger than steel is something mid tiers should be able to do.
That's not what I'm saying though. I'm saying it can be dismissed because it flies in the face of how the fight actually went where Thor was the only Avenger who Nefaria was actually scared of and could consistently harm the Count.
Because to paraphrase the argument from before, Nefaria will be exerting significantly more effort against Orion and Captain Marvel than he would against a group of street levellers and mid tiers. That means he'll be expending energy and getting weaker and weaker whilst the fight progresses. Also, even if the energy drain wasn't a factor, Orion and Marvel outclass him by comparative feats.
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#30
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: In that case I've got no choice but to concede Thor has more durability than Nefaria.
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#31
Posted by
Ancient_0f_Days
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Would it be a stretch to say Orion can one shot Nefaria with the Astro Force then go on the fight Thor considering his speed in the Astro-Harness? Honestly, he's a tier above him and if we look into his Astro Force feats, he can damn near continent bust, not even considering the sheer size of Apokolips and the amount of the planet Orion was destroying. Not to mention how he one shotted Kalibak, Mantis and Superman by flying into them. If Orion can one shot Nefaria before Thor can land a hit....Orion can solo
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#32
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Thanks for the positive discussion though, I appreciated the reasonable counter arguments you put up, I could definitely see where you were coming from regarding Nefaria.
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#33
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: Thanks. Despite adamantly disagreeing with you on a few occasions you definitely know how to debate properly.
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#1
Posted by
The_Dog_of_War
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- CIS off
- No Prep
- No BFR
- DC team is Pre-New 52
- Both teams are going all out
- Winner by KO or incapacitation
- Fight takes place on New Genesis
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#3
Posted by
Darth_Nimrod
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#4
Posted by
Cognitive
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Team 1 due to Orion.
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#6
Edited by
xMangog__Beastx
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@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
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#7
Posted by
Kevd4wg
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Team 1 due to Orion.
This, also Nefaria is one step above Featless
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#8
Posted by
The_Dog_of_War
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Callouts:
Thor:
@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf
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#9
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TifaLockhart
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Nefaria solos.
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#10
Posted by
hurricanefunnel
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@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
copy that
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#11
Posted by
Taskofwar
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@hurricanefunnel said:
@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
copy that
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#12
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Nefaria drains his energy quickly during battle against powerful opponents like Thor, Iron Man and Vision. Even when he was written at his most powerful, Nefaria drained more energy than he could recover it. Orion's Astro Force is also more than capable of KOing Nefaria given that it can knock out Superman and cause global tremors from being fired at the moon.
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#13
Posted by
Eeef
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Orion solostomps.
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#14
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TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: Fair point, but I'm not convinced Orion won't be eating dirt before then.
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#15
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Because of Nefaria's fight with Thor? Blocking Mjolnir is neat but Thor was still in the game after that. I'm not convinced Nefaria's physicals are consistently as impressive as the Superman/Hulk/Thor tier.
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#16
Edited by
Stalin-Is-Steel
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Orion stomps, Nefaria at his maximum best (as stated by himself) was throwing a mountain which isn't that impressive in comparison tbh.
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#17
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TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: because of Busiek's run where the Avengers winning back in the '70's was a "fluke" according to iirc Wasp and Mjolnir bounced off his chest in a flashback panel.
He may have had poor showings later but back when I was reading he took on the Avengers and the Thunderbolts simultaneously.
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#18
Edited by
The_Dog_of_War
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@stalin-is-steel: Nefaria's powers were weakening when he lifted that mountain.
Also, Nefaria got more powerful after his fight in Iron Man Annual 1999.
In The Avengers Vol. 3 #34 Iron Man said that "he's more powerful than ever!".
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#19
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Ah I knew you were going to bring that up. Tell me, who was the most powerful Avenger or Thunderbolt there? Who actually compared to Orion and Captain Marvel in terms of strength, let alone Hulk and Thor? I know all the characters that Nefaria fought but I want to hear your thoughts on why this is such a good showing.
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#20
Posted by
MrStranger
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Team 1.
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#21
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: I'll have to reread the arc. Brb.
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#22
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: alright I'm back. I'm no Marvel expert, but I'd guess Scarlet Witch was the most powerful member he took on. As far as fighting guys on par with Thor, no, he didn't encounter any in that instance, but Iron Man especially under Busiek isn't far behind and She-Hulk, Warbird, and Vision aren't exactly lightweights. He was simultaneously tanking their combined hits, among others. It wasn't just physical might they tossed at him either, he proved resistant to Scarlet Witch's magic, Songbird encasing him in a sound construct stronger than steel, and even Vision solidifying inside him.
I am genuinely baffled as to why he is being treated as a weak link here. If he was a tier below Thor then why didn't Thor solo him? If he was a tier below Thor why would it take three WEEKS of fighting for Iron Man and company to wear him down? And that still doesn't account for the stealth retcon of Mjolnir being no-sold by his chest.
Maybe he doesn't solo and I was wrong about that but he's being dismissed rather unfairly. Thor vs. Orion would be a rough fight yet the majority is acting like Orion would stomp The Count who at least rivals Thor.
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#23
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Scarlet Witch is the obvious choice for damage output but Thor was tanking Scarlet Witch's hex blasts along with her and Havok's blasts combined. She had to BFR him as there was no defeating him in direct conflict according to the narration. So Thor has Nefaria outperformed against Wanda. Iron Man, Vision, She Hulk and Warbird are all mid tiers and they were the only ones that were even remotely a threat to Nefaria before and for comparison, Pre Core Breach Hulk was stated to be more powerful than Iron Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch & Ionic Wonder Man combined.
This is the same Wonder Man who could turn the tide against Nefaria when free from his control yet Hulk is more powerful than him and 3 other mid tiers. Breaking a stronger than steel construct is also child's play to a high tier
Plot and because the writers intended for him to be a match for Thor. However, Thor has gained more feats over the years of his appearance that put him above Nefaria on a consistent basis and Nefaria was losing power rapidly fighting someone as powerful as Thor. Which means fighting Billy or Orion will drain his power at a near, if not equal rate. The stealth retcon flies in the face of their actual fight so it can be dismissed pretty easily.
Because Nefaria only has a few feats that are actually impressive and years worth of jobbing. Thor and Hulk have long since outclassed Nefaria with their feats whereas the Count doesn't have the showings to contend with them. I'll quote from a cancelled Hulk vs Count Nefaria CAV to demonstrate why Nefaria's energy stamina is a significant disadvantage for him.
Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:
They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;
- Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...
- Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.
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#24
Posted by
rhistr
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Team 1. Give Thor a better teammate.
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#25
Posted by
HeirToTheKingdom
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Team 2.
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#26
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: Define "tanking." If Thor was no-selling the combined attacks of Scarlet Witch and Havok I'll have to concede the point.
Thor is not Hulk. I also don't recall Wonder Man posing a significant threat to Nefaria in a physical sense either (but my copy of issue #33 is missing so I could be wrong).
We don't know how much stronger than steel the construct was, but even Etrigan had trouble when his arms were pinned by a car wrapped around him. Nefaria was encased with the stuff and broke out with no apparent strain.
Dismissing a feat just because you don't agree with it leads nowhere. If we're going by volume of feats, then Orion has Yuga Khan beat.
Why do you disagree with the three weeks assessment?
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#27
Posted by
RampageTheFirst
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Team 1 with Orion as MVP.
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#28
Posted by
IchiNiSanji
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Nefaria lacks endurance to be useful past a point in this battle.
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#29
Edited by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Well I'll post the scans from Uncanny Avengers #4 so you can see exactly how Thor fared. I think it's pretty hard to deny that what Thor is doing this isn't tanking these energy blasts.
In contrast, a less skilled and experienced Wanda was able to hurt Nefaria with her chaos magic.
That was during their first fight where Wonder Man wasn't a being of pure Ionic energy yet. When Simon was freed from Nefaria's control, he posed a much greater threat than he did back then.
It's still unquantifiable and still irrelevant given that stronger than steel is a vague statement. Destroying secondary adamantium would be a better measurement of strength but breaking something stronger than steel is something mid tiers should be able to do.
That's not what I'm saying though. I'm saying it can be dismissed because it flies in the face of how the fight actually went where Thor was the only Avenger who Nefaria was actually scared of and could consistently harm the Count.
Because to paraphrase the argument from before, Nefaria will be exerting significantly more effort against Orion and Captain Marvel than he would against a group of street levellers and mid tiers. That means he'll be expending energy and getting weaker and weaker whilst the fight progresses. Also, even if the energy drain wasn't a factor, Orion and Marvel outclass him by comparative feats.
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#30
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: In that case I've got no choice but to concede Thor has more durability than Nefaria.
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#31
Posted by
Ancient_0f_Days
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Would it be a stretch to say Orion can one shot Nefaria with the Astro Force then go on the fight Thor considering his speed in the Astro-Harness? Honestly, he's a tier above him and if we look into his Astro Force feats, he can damn near continent bust, not even considering the sheer size of Apokolips and the amount of the planet Orion was destroying. Not to mention how he one shotted Kalibak, Mantis and Superman by flying into them. If Orion can one shot Nefaria before Thor can land a hit....Orion can solo
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#32
Posted by
Lvenger
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- 30 days, 8 hours ago
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@tifalockhart: Thanks for the positive discussion though, I appreciated the reasonable counter arguments you put up, I could definitely see where you were coming from regarding Nefaria.
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#33
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: Thanks. Despite adamantly disagreeing with you on a few occasions you definitely know how to debate properly.
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#1
Posted by
The_Dog_of_War
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- CIS off
- No Prep
- No BFR
- DC team is Pre-New 52
- Both teams are going all out
- Winner by KO or incapacitation
- Fight takes place on New Genesis
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#3
Posted by
Darth_Nimrod
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Bump
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#4
Posted by
Cognitive
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Team 1 due to Orion.
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#6
Edited by
xMangog__Beastx
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@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
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#7
Posted by
Kevd4wg
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Team 1 due to Orion.
This, also Nefaria is one step above Featless
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#8
Posted by
The_Dog_of_War
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Callouts:
Thor:
@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf
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#9
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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Nefaria solos.
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#10
Posted by
hurricanefunnel
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@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
copy that
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#11
Posted by
Taskofwar
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@hurricanefunnel said:
@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
copy that
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#12
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Nefaria drains his energy quickly during battle against powerful opponents like Thor, Iron Man and Vision. Even when he was written at his most powerful, Nefaria drained more energy than he could recover it. Orion's Astro Force is also more than capable of KOing Nefaria given that it can knock out Superman and cause global tremors from being fired at the moon.
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#13
Posted by
Eeef
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Orion solostomps.
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#14
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: Fair point, but I'm not convinced Orion won't be eating dirt before then.
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#15
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Because of Nefaria's fight with Thor? Blocking Mjolnir is neat but Thor was still in the game after that. I'm not convinced Nefaria's physicals are consistently as impressive as the Superman/Hulk/Thor tier.
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#16
Edited by
Stalin-Is-Steel
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Orion stomps, Nefaria at his maximum best (as stated by himself) was throwing a mountain which isn't that impressive in comparison tbh.
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#17
Edited by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: because of Busiek's run where the Avengers winning back in the '70's was a "fluke" according to iirc Wasp and Mjolnir bounced off his chest in a flashback panel.
He may have had poor showings later but back when I was reading he took on the Avengers and the Thunderbolts simultaneously.
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#18
Edited by
The_Dog_of_War
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@stalin-is-steel: Nefaria's powers were weakening when he lifted that mountain.
Also, Nefaria got more powerful after his fight in Iron Man Annual 1999.
In The Avengers Vol. 3 #34 Iron Man said that "he's more powerful than ever!".
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#19
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Ah I knew you were going to bring that up. Tell me, who was the most powerful Avenger or Thunderbolt there? Who actually compared to Orion and Captain Marvel in terms of strength, let alone Hulk and Thor? I know all the characters that Nefaria fought but I want to hear your thoughts on why this is such a good showing.
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#20
Posted by
MrStranger
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Team 1.
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#21
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: I'll have to reread the arc. Brb.
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#22
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: alright I'm back. I'm no Marvel expert, but I'd guess Scarlet Witch was the most powerful member he took on. As far as fighting guys on par with Thor, no, he didn't encounter any in that instance, but Iron Man especially under Busiek isn't far behind and She-Hulk, Warbird, and Vision aren't exactly lightweights. He was simultaneously tanking their combined hits, among others. It wasn't just physical might they tossed at him either, he proved resistant to Scarlet Witch's magic, Songbird encasing him in a sound construct stronger than steel, and even Vision solidifying inside him.
I am genuinely baffled as to why he is being treated as a weak link here. If he was a tier below Thor then why didn't Thor solo him? If he was a tier below Thor why would it take three WEEKS of fighting for Iron Man and company to wear him down? And that still doesn't account for the stealth retcon of Mjolnir being no-sold by his chest.
Maybe he doesn't solo and I was wrong about that but he's being dismissed rather unfairly. Thor vs. Orion would be a rough fight yet the majority is acting like Orion would stomp The Count who at least rivals Thor.
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#23
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Scarlet Witch is the obvious choice for damage output but Thor was tanking Scarlet Witch's hex blasts along with her and Havok's blasts combined. She had to BFR him as there was no defeating him in direct conflict according to the narration. So Thor has Nefaria outperformed against Wanda. Iron Man, Vision, She Hulk and Warbird are all mid tiers and they were the only ones that were even remotely a threat to Nefaria before and for comparison, Pre Core Breach Hulk was stated to be more powerful than Iron Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch & Ionic Wonder Man combined.
This is the same Wonder Man who could turn the tide against Nefaria when free from his control yet Hulk is more powerful than him and 3 other mid tiers. Breaking a stronger than steel construct is also child's play to a high tier
Plot and because the writers intended for him to be a match for Thor. However, Thor has gained more feats over the years of his appearance that put him above Nefaria on a consistent basis and Nefaria was losing power rapidly fighting someone as powerful as Thor. Which means fighting Billy or Orion will drain his power at a near, if not equal rate. The stealth retcon flies in the face of their actual fight so it can be dismissed pretty easily.
Because Nefaria only has a few feats that are actually impressive and years worth of jobbing. Thor and Hulk have long since outclassed Nefaria with their feats whereas the Count doesn't have the showings to contend with them. I'll quote from a cancelled Hulk vs Count Nefaria CAV to demonstrate why Nefaria's energy stamina is a significant disadvantage for him.
Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:
They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;
- Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...
- Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.
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#24
Posted by
rhistr
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Team 1. Give Thor a better teammate.
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#25
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HeirToTheKingdom
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Team 2.
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#26
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TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: Define "tanking." If Thor was no-selling the combined attacks of Scarlet Witch and Havok I'll have to concede the point.
Thor is not Hulk. I also don't recall Wonder Man posing a significant threat to Nefaria in a physical sense either (but my copy of issue #33 is missing so I could be wrong).
We don't know how much stronger than steel the construct was, but even Etrigan had trouble when his arms were pinned by a car wrapped around him. Nefaria was encased with the stuff and broke out with no apparent strain.
Dismissing a feat just because you don't agree with it leads nowhere. If we're going by volume of feats, then Orion has Yuga Khan beat.
Why do you disagree with the three weeks assessment?
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#27
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RampageTheFirst
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Team 1 with Orion as MVP.
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#28
Posted by
IchiNiSanji
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Nefaria lacks endurance to be useful past a point in this battle.
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#29
Edited by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Well I'll post the scans from Uncanny Avengers #4 so you can see exactly how Thor fared. I think it's pretty hard to deny that what Thor is doing this isn't tanking these energy blasts.
In contrast, a less skilled and experienced Wanda was able to hurt Nefaria with her chaos magic.
That was during their first fight where Wonder Man wasn't a being of pure Ionic energy yet. When Simon was freed from Nefaria's control, he posed a much greater threat than he did back then.
It's still unquantifiable and still irrelevant given that stronger than steel is a vague statement. Destroying secondary adamantium would be a better measurement of strength but breaking something stronger than steel is something mid tiers should be able to do.
That's not what I'm saying though. I'm saying it can be dismissed because it flies in the face of how the fight actually went where Thor was the only Avenger who Nefaria was actually scared of and could consistently harm the Count.
Because to paraphrase the argument from before, Nefaria will be exerting significantly more effort against Orion and Captain Marvel than he would against a group of street levellers and mid tiers. That means he'll be expending energy and getting weaker and weaker whilst the fight progresses. Also, even if the energy drain wasn't a factor, Orion and Marvel outclass him by comparative feats.
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#30
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TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: In that case I've got no choice but to concede Thor has more durability than Nefaria.
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#31
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Ancient_0f_Days
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Would it be a stretch to say Orion can one shot Nefaria with the Astro Force then go on the fight Thor considering his speed in the Astro-Harness? Honestly, he's a tier above him and if we look into his Astro Force feats, he can damn near continent bust, not even considering the sheer size of Apokolips and the amount of the planet Orion was destroying. Not to mention how he one shotted Kalibak, Mantis and Superman by flying into them. If Orion can one shot Nefaria before Thor can land a hit....Orion can solo
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#32
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Thanks for the positive discussion though, I appreciated the reasonable counter arguments you put up, I could definitely see where you were coming from regarding Nefaria.
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#33
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: Thanks. Despite adamantly disagreeing with you on a few occasions you definitely know how to debate properly.
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#1
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- CIS off
- No Prep
- No BFR
- DC team is Pre-New 52
- Both teams are going all out
- Winner by KO or incapacitation
- Fight takes place on New Genesis
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#3
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Bump
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#4
Posted by
Cognitive
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Team 1 due to Orion.
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#6
Edited by
xMangog__Beastx
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@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
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#7
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Kevd4wg
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Team 1 due to Orion.
This, also Nefaria is one step above Featless
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#8
Posted by
The_Dog_of_War
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Callouts:
Thor:
@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf
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#9
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TifaLockhart
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Nefaria solos.
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#10
Posted by
hurricanefunnel
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@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
copy that
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#11
Posted by
Taskofwar
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@hurricanefunnel said:
@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
copy that
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#12
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Nefaria drains his energy quickly during battle against powerful opponents like Thor, Iron Man and Vision. Even when he was written at his most powerful, Nefaria drained more energy than he could recover it. Orion's Astro Force is also more than capable of KOing Nefaria given that it can knock out Superman and cause global tremors from being fired at the moon.
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#13
Posted by
Eeef
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Orion solostomps.
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#14
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TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: Fair point, but I'm not convinced Orion won't be eating dirt before then.
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#15
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Because of Nefaria's fight with Thor? Blocking Mjolnir is neat but Thor was still in the game after that. I'm not convinced Nefaria's physicals are consistently as impressive as the Superman/Hulk/Thor tier.
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#16
Edited by
Stalin-Is-Steel
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Orion stomps, Nefaria at his maximum best (as stated by himself) was throwing a mountain which isn't that impressive in comparison tbh.
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#17
Edited by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: because of Busiek's run where the Avengers winning back in the '70's was a "fluke" according to iirc Wasp and Mjolnir bounced off his chest in a flashback panel.
He may have had poor showings later but back when I was reading he took on the Avengers and the Thunderbolts simultaneously.
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#18
Edited by
The_Dog_of_War
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@stalin-is-steel: Nefaria's powers were weakening when he lifted that mountain.
Also, Nefaria got more powerful after his fight in Iron Man Annual 1999.
In The Avengers Vol. 3 #34 Iron Man said that "he's more powerful than ever!".
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#19
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Ah I knew you were going to bring that up. Tell me, who was the most powerful Avenger or Thunderbolt there? Who actually compared to Orion and Captain Marvel in terms of strength, let alone Hulk and Thor? I know all the characters that Nefaria fought but I want to hear your thoughts on why this is such a good showing.
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#20
Posted by
MrStranger
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Team 1.
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#21
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: I'll have to reread the arc. Brb.
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#22
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: alright I'm back. I'm no Marvel expert, but I'd guess Scarlet Witch was the most powerful member he took on. As far as fighting guys on par with Thor, no, he didn't encounter any in that instance, but Iron Man especially under Busiek isn't far behind and She-Hulk, Warbird, and Vision aren't exactly lightweights. He was simultaneously tanking their combined hits, among others. It wasn't just physical might they tossed at him either, he proved resistant to Scarlet Witch's magic, Songbird encasing him in a sound construct stronger than steel, and even Vision solidifying inside him.
I am genuinely baffled as to why he is being treated as a weak link here. If he was a tier below Thor then why didn't Thor solo him? If he was a tier below Thor why would it take three WEEKS of fighting for Iron Man and company to wear him down? And that still doesn't account for the stealth retcon of Mjolnir being no-sold by his chest.
Maybe he doesn't solo and I was wrong about that but he's being dismissed rather unfairly. Thor vs. Orion would be a rough fight yet the majority is acting like Orion would stomp The Count who at least rivals Thor.
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#23
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Scarlet Witch is the obvious choice for damage output but Thor was tanking Scarlet Witch's hex blasts along with her and Havok's blasts combined. She had to BFR him as there was no defeating him in direct conflict according to the narration. So Thor has Nefaria outperformed against Wanda. Iron Man, Vision, She Hulk and Warbird are all mid tiers and they were the only ones that were even remotely a threat to Nefaria before and for comparison, Pre Core Breach Hulk was stated to be more powerful than Iron Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch & Ionic Wonder Man combined.
This is the same Wonder Man who could turn the tide against Nefaria when free from his control yet Hulk is more powerful than him and 3 other mid tiers. Breaking a stronger than steel construct is also child's play to a high tier
Plot and because the writers intended for him to be a match for Thor. However, Thor has gained more feats over the years of his appearance that put him above Nefaria on a consistent basis and Nefaria was losing power rapidly fighting someone as powerful as Thor. Which means fighting Billy or Orion will drain his power at a near, if not equal rate. The stealth retcon flies in the face of their actual fight so it can be dismissed pretty easily.
Because Nefaria only has a few feats that are actually impressive and years worth of jobbing. Thor and Hulk have long since outclassed Nefaria with their feats whereas the Count doesn't have the showings to contend with them. I'll quote from a cancelled Hulk vs Count Nefaria CAV to demonstrate why Nefaria's energy stamina is a significant disadvantage for him.
Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:
They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;
- Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...
- Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.
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#24
Posted by
rhistr
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Team 1. Give Thor a better teammate.
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#25
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HeirToTheKingdom
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Team 2.
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#26
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: Define "tanking." If Thor was no-selling the combined attacks of Scarlet Witch and Havok I'll have to concede the point.
Thor is not Hulk. I also don't recall Wonder Man posing a significant threat to Nefaria in a physical sense either (but my copy of issue #33 is missing so I could be wrong).
We don't know how much stronger than steel the construct was, but even Etrigan had trouble when his arms were pinned by a car wrapped around him. Nefaria was encased with the stuff and broke out with no apparent strain.
Dismissing a feat just because you don't agree with it leads nowhere. If we're going by volume of feats, then Orion has Yuga Khan beat.
Why do you disagree with the three weeks assessment?
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#27
Posted by
RampageTheFirst
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Team 1 with Orion as MVP.
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#28
Posted by
IchiNiSanji
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Nefaria lacks endurance to be useful past a point in this battle.
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#29
Edited by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Well I'll post the scans from Uncanny Avengers #4 so you can see exactly how Thor fared. I think it's pretty hard to deny that what Thor is doing this isn't tanking these energy blasts.
In contrast, a less skilled and experienced Wanda was able to hurt Nefaria with her chaos magic.
That was during their first fight where Wonder Man wasn't a being of pure Ionic energy yet. When Simon was freed from Nefaria's control, he posed a much greater threat than he did back then.
It's still unquantifiable and still irrelevant given that stronger than steel is a vague statement. Destroying secondary adamantium would be a better measurement of strength but breaking something stronger than steel is something mid tiers should be able to do.
That's not what I'm saying though. I'm saying it can be dismissed because it flies in the face of how the fight actually went where Thor was the only Avenger who Nefaria was actually scared of and could consistently harm the Count.
Because to paraphrase the argument from before, Nefaria will be exerting significantly more effort against Orion and Captain Marvel than he would against a group of street levellers and mid tiers. That means he'll be expending energy and getting weaker and weaker whilst the fight progresses. Also, even if the energy drain wasn't a factor, Orion and Marvel outclass him by comparative feats.
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#30
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TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: In that case I've got no choice but to concede Thor has more durability than Nefaria.
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#31
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Ancient_0f_Days
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Would it be a stretch to say Orion can one shot Nefaria with the Astro Force then go on the fight Thor considering his speed in the Astro-Harness? Honestly, he's a tier above him and if we look into his Astro Force feats, he can damn near continent bust, not even considering the sheer size of Apokolips and the amount of the planet Orion was destroying. Not to mention how he one shotted Kalibak, Mantis and Superman by flying into them. If Orion can one shot Nefaria before Thor can land a hit....Orion can solo
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#32
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Thanks for the positive discussion though, I appreciated the reasonable counter arguments you put up, I could definitely see where you were coming from regarding Nefaria.
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#33
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: Thanks. Despite adamantly disagreeing with you on a few occasions you definitely know how to debate properly.
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#1
Posted by
The_Dog_of_War
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- CIS off
- No Prep
- No BFR
- DC team is Pre-New 52
- Both teams are going all out
- Winner by KO or incapacitation
- Fight takes place on New Genesis
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#3
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Darth_Nimrod
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#4
Posted by
Cognitive
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Team 1 due to Orion.
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#6
Edited by
xMangog__Beastx
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@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
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#7
Posted by
Kevd4wg
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Team 1 due to Orion.
This, also Nefaria is one step above Featless
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#8
Posted by
The_Dog_of_War
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Callouts:
Thor:
@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf
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#9
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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Nefaria solos.
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#10
Posted by
hurricanefunnel
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@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
copy that
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#11
Posted by
Taskofwar
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@hurricanefunnel said:
@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
copy that
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#12
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Nefaria drains his energy quickly during battle against powerful opponents like Thor, Iron Man and Vision. Even when he was written at his most powerful, Nefaria drained more energy than he could recover it. Orion's Astro Force is also more than capable of KOing Nefaria given that it can knock out Superman and cause global tremors from being fired at the moon.
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#13
Posted by
Eeef
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Orion solostomps.
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#14
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: Fair point, but I'm not convinced Orion won't be eating dirt before then.
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#15
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Because of Nefaria's fight with Thor? Blocking Mjolnir is neat but Thor was still in the game after that. I'm not convinced Nefaria's physicals are consistently as impressive as the Superman/Hulk/Thor tier.
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#16
Edited by
Stalin-Is-Steel
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Orion stomps, Nefaria at his maximum best (as stated by himself) was throwing a mountain which isn't that impressive in comparison tbh.
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#17
Edited by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: because of Busiek's run where the Avengers winning back in the '70's was a "fluke" according to iirc Wasp and Mjolnir bounced off his chest in a flashback panel.
He may have had poor showings later but back when I was reading he took on the Avengers and the Thunderbolts simultaneously.
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#18
Edited by
The_Dog_of_War
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@stalin-is-steel: Nefaria's powers were weakening when he lifted that mountain.
Also, Nefaria got more powerful after his fight in Iron Man Annual 1999.
In The Avengers Vol. 3 #34 Iron Man said that "he's more powerful than ever!".
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#19
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Ah I knew you were going to bring that up. Tell me, who was the most powerful Avenger or Thunderbolt there? Who actually compared to Orion and Captain Marvel in terms of strength, let alone Hulk and Thor? I know all the characters that Nefaria fought but I want to hear your thoughts on why this is such a good showing.
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#20
Posted by
MrStranger
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Team 1.
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#21
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: I'll have to reread the arc. Brb.
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#22
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: alright I'm back. I'm no Marvel expert, but I'd guess Scarlet Witch was the most powerful member he took on. As far as fighting guys on par with Thor, no, he didn't encounter any in that instance, but Iron Man especially under Busiek isn't far behind and She-Hulk, Warbird, and Vision aren't exactly lightweights. He was simultaneously tanking their combined hits, among others. It wasn't just physical might they tossed at him either, he proved resistant to Scarlet Witch's magic, Songbird encasing him in a sound construct stronger than steel, and even Vision solidifying inside him.
I am genuinely baffled as to why he is being treated as a weak link here. If he was a tier below Thor then why didn't Thor solo him? If he was a tier below Thor why would it take three WEEKS of fighting for Iron Man and company to wear him down? And that still doesn't account for the stealth retcon of Mjolnir being no-sold by his chest.
Maybe he doesn't solo and I was wrong about that but he's being dismissed rather unfairly. Thor vs. Orion would be a rough fight yet the majority is acting like Orion would stomp The Count who at least rivals Thor.
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#23
Posted by
Lvenger
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- 1 month, 3 days ago
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@tifalockhart: Scarlet Witch is the obvious choice for damage output but Thor was tanking Scarlet Witch's hex blasts along with her and Havok's blasts combined. She had to BFR him as there was no defeating him in direct conflict according to the narration. So Thor has Nefaria outperformed against Wanda. Iron Man, Vision, She Hulk and Warbird are all mid tiers and they were the only ones that were even remotely a threat to Nefaria before and for comparison, Pre Core Breach Hulk was stated to be more powerful than Iron Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch & Ionic Wonder Man combined.
This is the same Wonder Man who could turn the tide against Nefaria when free from his control yet Hulk is more powerful than him and 3 other mid tiers. Breaking a stronger than steel construct is also child's play to a high tier
Plot and because the writers intended for him to be a match for Thor. However, Thor has gained more feats over the years of his appearance that put him above Nefaria on a consistent basis and Nefaria was losing power rapidly fighting someone as powerful as Thor. Which means fighting Billy or Orion will drain his power at a near, if not equal rate. The stealth retcon flies in the face of their actual fight so it can be dismissed pretty easily.
Because Nefaria only has a few feats that are actually impressive and years worth of jobbing. Thor and Hulk have long since outclassed Nefaria with their feats whereas the Count doesn't have the showings to contend with them. I'll quote from a cancelled Hulk vs Count Nefaria CAV to demonstrate why Nefaria's energy stamina is a significant disadvantage for him.
Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:
They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;
- Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...
- Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.
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#24
Posted by
rhistr
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- 1 month, 3 days ago
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Team 1. Give Thor a better teammate.
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#25
Posted by
HeirToTheKingdom
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Team 2.
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#26
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: Define "tanking." If Thor was no-selling the combined attacks of Scarlet Witch and Havok I'll have to concede the point.
Thor is not Hulk. I also don't recall Wonder Man posing a significant threat to Nefaria in a physical sense either (but my copy of issue #33 is missing so I could be wrong).
We don't know how much stronger than steel the construct was, but even Etrigan had trouble when his arms were pinned by a car wrapped around him. Nefaria was encased with the stuff and broke out with no apparent strain.
Dismissing a feat just because you don't agree with it leads nowhere. If we're going by volume of feats, then Orion has Yuga Khan beat.
Why do you disagree with the three weeks assessment?
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#27
Posted by
RampageTheFirst
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Team 1 with Orion as MVP.
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#28
Posted by
IchiNiSanji
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- 1 month, 2 days ago
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Nefaria lacks endurance to be useful past a point in this battle.
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#29
Edited by
Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 16 hours ago
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@tifalockhart: Well I'll post the scans from Uncanny Avengers #4 so you can see exactly how Thor fared. I think it's pretty hard to deny that what Thor is doing this isn't tanking these energy blasts.
In contrast, a less skilled and experienced Wanda was able to hurt Nefaria with her chaos magic.
That was during their first fight where Wonder Man wasn't a being of pure Ionic energy yet. When Simon was freed from Nefaria's control, he posed a much greater threat than he did back then.
It's still unquantifiable and still irrelevant given that stronger than steel is a vague statement. Destroying secondary adamantium would be a better measurement of strength but breaking something stronger than steel is something mid tiers should be able to do.
That's not what I'm saying though. I'm saying it can be dismissed because it flies in the face of how the fight actually went where Thor was the only Avenger who Nefaria was actually scared of and could consistently harm the Count.
Because to paraphrase the argument from before, Nefaria will be exerting significantly more effort against Orion and Captain Marvel than he would against a group of street levellers and mid tiers. That means he'll be expending energy and getting weaker and weaker whilst the fight progresses. Also, even if the energy drain wasn't a factor, Orion and Marvel outclass him by comparative feats.
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#30
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: In that case I've got no choice but to concede Thor has more durability than Nefaria.
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#31
Posted by
Ancient_0f_Days
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Would it be a stretch to say Orion can one shot Nefaria with the Astro Force then go on the fight Thor considering his speed in the Astro-Harness? Honestly, he's a tier above him and if we look into his Astro Force feats, he can damn near continent bust, not even considering the sheer size of Apokolips and the amount of the planet Orion was destroying. Not to mention how he one shotted Kalibak, Mantis and Superman by flying into them. If Orion can one shot Nefaria before Thor can land a hit....Orion can solo
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#32
Posted by
Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 30 days, 8 hours ago
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@tifalockhart: Thanks for the positive discussion though, I appreciated the reasonable counter arguments you put up, I could definitely see where you were coming from regarding Nefaria.
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#33
Posted by
TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 27 days, 23 hours ago
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@lvenger: Thanks. Despite adamantly disagreeing with you on a few occasions you definitely know how to debate properly.
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#1
Posted by
The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
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- CIS off
- No Prep
- No BFR
- DC team is Pre-New 52
- Both teams are going all out
- Winner by KO or incapacitation
- Fight takes place on New Genesis
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#1
Posted by
The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
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- CIS off
- No Prep
- No BFR
- DC team is Pre-New 52
- Both teams are going all out
- Winner by KO or incapacitation
- Fight takes place on New Genesis
#1
Posted by
The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 8 days ago
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- CIS off
- No Prep
- No BFR
- DC team is Pre-New 52
- Both teams are going all out
- Winner by KO or incapacitation
- Fight takes place on New Genesis
#1
Posted by
The_Dog_of_War
(2022 posts)
- 1 month, 8 days ago
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- CIS off
- No Prep
- No BFR
- DC team is Pre-New 52
- Both teams are going all out
- Winner by KO or incapacitation
- Fight takes place on New Genesis
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#3
Posted by
Darth_Nimrod
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Bump
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#3
Posted by
Darth_Nimrod
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Bump
#3
Posted by
Darth_Nimrod
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Bump
#3
Posted by
Darth_Nimrod
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Bump
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#4
Posted by
Cognitive
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Team 1 due to Orion.
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#4
Posted by
Cognitive
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Team 1 due to Orion.
#4
Posted by
Cognitive
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Team 1 due to Orion.
#4
Posted by
Cognitive
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Team 1 due to Orion.
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#6
Edited by
xMangog__Beastx
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@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
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#6
Edited by
xMangog__Beastx
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@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
#6
Edited by
xMangog__Beastx
(2310 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
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@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
#6
Edited by
xMangog__Beastx
(2310 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
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@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
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#7
Posted by
Kevd4wg
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Team 1 due to Orion.
This, also Nefaria is one step above Featless
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#7
Posted by
Kevd4wg
(9092 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
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Team 1 due to Orion.
This, also Nefaria is one step above Featless
#7
Posted by
Kevd4wg
(9092 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
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Team 1 due to Orion.
This, also Nefaria is one step above Featless
#7
Posted by
Kevd4wg
(9092 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
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Team 1 due to Orion.
This, also Nefaria is one step above Featless
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#8
Posted by
The_Dog_of_War
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Callouts:
Thor:
@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf
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#8
Posted by
The_Dog_of_War
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Callouts:
Thor:
@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf
#8
Posted by
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Thor:
@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf
#8
Posted by
The_Dog_of_War
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Callouts:
Thor:
@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf
Thor:
@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf
Thor:
@dondave@New_World_Order@serrure@norrinboltagonprime21@unbreakable_fs4@darrellacoustic@wolverine08@jayc1324@cosmicallyaware1@patrat18@cable_extreme@14nc3@thitiki@king_stranglehold_da_first@sophia89@lowlaville@godtriggerhulk@ssj_god@thedailybagel@oceanmaster21@thor_parker82@apocalypse3@hulkage@comicdude360@jackjack390@cgoodness@spiderman1997@nighthunder@lvenger@citizensentry@jrupert1@darth_wayne@onepieceverse@asgardianbrony@jaycool2@newworldorder@jay_z94@the_fub@all-father@zemoftw@conner_wolf
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#9
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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- 1 month, 6 days ago
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Nefaria solos.
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#9
Posted by
TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
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Nefaria solos.
#9
Posted by
TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
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Nefaria solos.
#9
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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- 1 month, 6 days ago
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Nefaria solos.
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#10
Posted by
hurricanefunnel
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@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
copy that
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#10
Posted by
hurricanefunnel
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@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
copy that
#10
Posted by
hurricanefunnel
(528 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
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@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
copy that
#10
Posted by
hurricanefunnel
(528 posts)
- 1 month, 6 days ago
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@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
copy that
@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
Team 1 due to Orion.
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#11
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@hurricanefunnel said:
@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
copy that
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#11
Posted by
Taskofwar
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@hurricanefunnel said:
@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
copy that
#11
Posted by
Taskofwar
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@hurricanefunnel said:
@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
copy that
#11
Posted by
Taskofwar
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@hurricanefunnel said:
@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
copy that
@hurricanefunnel said:
@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
copy that
@hurricanefunnel said:
@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
copy that
@xmangog__beastx said:
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
@cognitive said:
Team 1 due to Orion.
Team 1 due to Orion.
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#12
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Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Nefaria drains his energy quickly during battle against powerful opponents like Thor, Iron Man and Vision. Even when he was written at his most powerful, Nefaria drained more energy than he could recover it. Orion's Astro Force is also more than capable of KOing Nefaria given that it can knock out Superman and cause global tremors from being fired at the moon.
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#12
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Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Nefaria drains his energy quickly during battle against powerful opponents like Thor, Iron Man and Vision. Even when he was written at his most powerful, Nefaria drained more energy than he could recover it. Orion's Astro Force is also more than capable of KOing Nefaria given that it can knock out Superman and cause global tremors from being fired at the moon.
#12
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Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Nefaria drains his energy quickly during battle against powerful opponents like Thor, Iron Man and Vision. Even when he was written at his most powerful, Nefaria drained more energy than he could recover it. Orion's Astro Force is also more than capable of KOing Nefaria given that it can knock out Superman and cause global tremors from being fired at the moon.
#12
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Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Nefaria drains his energy quickly during battle against powerful opponents like Thor, Iron Man and Vision. Even when he was written at his most powerful, Nefaria drained more energy than he could recover it. Orion's Astro Force is also more than capable of KOing Nefaria given that it can knock out Superman and cause global tremors from being fired at the moon.
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#13
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Orion solostomps.
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#13
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Eeef
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Orion solostomps.
#13
Posted by
Eeef
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Orion solostomps.
#13
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Eeef
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Orion solostomps.
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#14
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@lvenger: Fair point, but I'm not convinced Orion won't be eating dirt before then.
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#14
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@lvenger: Fair point, but I'm not convinced Orion won't be eating dirt before then.
#14
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TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: Fair point, but I'm not convinced Orion won't be eating dirt before then.
#14
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@lvenger: Fair point, but I'm not convinced Orion won't be eating dirt before then.
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#15
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@tifalockhart: Because of Nefaria's fight with Thor? Blocking Mjolnir is neat but Thor was still in the game after that. I'm not convinced Nefaria's physicals are consistently as impressive as the Superman/Hulk/Thor tier.
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#15
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@tifalockhart: Because of Nefaria's fight with Thor? Blocking Mjolnir is neat but Thor was still in the game after that. I'm not convinced Nefaria's physicals are consistently as impressive as the Superman/Hulk/Thor tier.
#15
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Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Because of Nefaria's fight with Thor? Blocking Mjolnir is neat but Thor was still in the game after that. I'm not convinced Nefaria's physicals are consistently as impressive as the Superman/Hulk/Thor tier.
#15
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Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Because of Nefaria's fight with Thor? Blocking Mjolnir is neat but Thor was still in the game after that. I'm not convinced Nefaria's physicals are consistently as impressive as the Superman/Hulk/Thor tier.
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#16
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Stalin-Is-Steel
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Orion stomps, Nefaria at his maximum best (as stated by himself) was throwing a mountain which isn't that impressive in comparison tbh.
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#16
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Stalin-Is-Steel
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Orion stomps, Nefaria at his maximum best (as stated by himself) was throwing a mountain which isn't that impressive in comparison tbh.
#16
Edited by
Stalin-Is-Steel
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Orion stomps, Nefaria at his maximum best (as stated by himself) was throwing a mountain which isn't that impressive in comparison tbh.
#16
Edited by
Stalin-Is-Steel
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Orion stomps, Nefaria at his maximum best (as stated by himself) was throwing a mountain which isn't that impressive in comparison tbh.
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#17
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@lvenger: because of Busiek's run where the Avengers winning back in the '70's was a "fluke" according to iirc Wasp and Mjolnir bounced off his chest in a flashback panel.
He may have had poor showings later but back when I was reading he took on the Avengers and the Thunderbolts simultaneously.
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#17
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TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: because of Busiek's run where the Avengers winning back in the '70's was a "fluke" according to iirc Wasp and Mjolnir bounced off his chest in a flashback panel.
He may have had poor showings later but back when I was reading he took on the Avengers and the Thunderbolts simultaneously.
#17
Edited by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: because of Busiek's run where the Avengers winning back in the '70's was a "fluke" according to iirc Wasp and Mjolnir bounced off his chest in a flashback panel.
He may have had poor showings later but back when I was reading he took on the Avengers and the Thunderbolts simultaneously.
#17
Edited by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: because of Busiek's run where the Avengers winning back in the '70's was a "fluke" according to iirc Wasp and Mjolnir bounced off his chest in a flashback panel.
He may have had poor showings later but back when I was reading he took on the Avengers and the Thunderbolts simultaneously.
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#18
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The_Dog_of_War
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@stalin-is-steel: Nefaria's powers were weakening when he lifted that mountain.
Also, Nefaria got more powerful after his fight in Iron Man Annual 1999.
In The Avengers Vol. 3 #34 Iron Man said that "he's more powerful than ever!".
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#18
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The_Dog_of_War
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@stalin-is-steel: Nefaria's powers were weakening when he lifted that mountain.
Also, Nefaria got more powerful after his fight in Iron Man Annual 1999.
In The Avengers Vol. 3 #34 Iron Man said that "he's more powerful than ever!".
#18
Edited by
The_Dog_of_War
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@stalin-is-steel: Nefaria's powers were weakening when he lifted that mountain.
Also, Nefaria got more powerful after his fight in Iron Man Annual 1999.
In The Avengers Vol. 3 #34 Iron Man said that "he's more powerful than ever!".
#18
Edited by
The_Dog_of_War
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@stalin-is-steel: Nefaria's powers were weakening when he lifted that mountain.
Also, Nefaria got more powerful after his fight in Iron Man Annual 1999.
In The Avengers Vol. 3 #34 Iron Man said that "he's more powerful than ever!".
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#19
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@tifalockhart: Ah I knew you were going to bring that up. Tell me, who was the most powerful Avenger or Thunderbolt there? Who actually compared to Orion and Captain Marvel in terms of strength, let alone Hulk and Thor? I know all the characters that Nefaria fought but I want to hear your thoughts on why this is such a good showing.
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#19
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Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Ah I knew you were going to bring that up. Tell me, who was the most powerful Avenger or Thunderbolt there? Who actually compared to Orion and Captain Marvel in terms of strength, let alone Hulk and Thor? I know all the characters that Nefaria fought but I want to hear your thoughts on why this is such a good showing.
#19
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Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Ah I knew you were going to bring that up. Tell me, who was the most powerful Avenger or Thunderbolt there? Who actually compared to Orion and Captain Marvel in terms of strength, let alone Hulk and Thor? I know all the characters that Nefaria fought but I want to hear your thoughts on why this is such a good showing.
#19
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Ah I knew you were going to bring that up. Tell me, who was the most powerful Avenger or Thunderbolt there? Who actually compared to Orion and Captain Marvel in terms of strength, let alone Hulk and Thor? I know all the characters that Nefaria fought but I want to hear your thoughts on why this is such a good showing.
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#20
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Team 1.
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#20
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MrStranger
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Team 1.
#20
Posted by
MrStranger
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Team 1.
#20
Posted by
MrStranger
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Team 1.
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#21
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@lvenger: I'll have to reread the arc. Brb.
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#21
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@lvenger: I'll have to reread the arc. Brb.
#21
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TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: I'll have to reread the arc. Brb.
#21
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TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: I'll have to reread the arc. Brb.
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#22
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@lvenger: alright I'm back. I'm no Marvel expert, but I'd guess Scarlet Witch was the most powerful member he took on. As far as fighting guys on par with Thor, no, he didn't encounter any in that instance, but Iron Man especially under Busiek isn't far behind and She-Hulk, Warbird, and Vision aren't exactly lightweights. He was simultaneously tanking their combined hits, among others. It wasn't just physical might they tossed at him either, he proved resistant to Scarlet Witch's magic, Songbird encasing him in a sound construct stronger than steel, and even Vision solidifying inside him.
I am genuinely baffled as to why he is being treated as a weak link here. If he was a tier below Thor then why didn't Thor solo him? If he was a tier below Thor why would it take three WEEKS of fighting for Iron Man and company to wear him down? And that still doesn't account for the stealth retcon of Mjolnir being no-sold by his chest.
Maybe he doesn't solo and I was wrong about that but he's being dismissed rather unfairly. Thor vs. Orion would be a rough fight yet the majority is acting like Orion would stomp The Count who at least rivals Thor.
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#22
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@lvenger: alright I'm back. I'm no Marvel expert, but I'd guess Scarlet Witch was the most powerful member he took on. As far as fighting guys on par with Thor, no, he didn't encounter any in that instance, but Iron Man especially under Busiek isn't far behind and She-Hulk, Warbird, and Vision aren't exactly lightweights. He was simultaneously tanking their combined hits, among others. It wasn't just physical might they tossed at him either, he proved resistant to Scarlet Witch's magic, Songbird encasing him in a sound construct stronger than steel, and even Vision solidifying inside him.
I am genuinely baffled as to why he is being treated as a weak link here. If he was a tier below Thor then why didn't Thor solo him? If he was a tier below Thor why would it take three WEEKS of fighting for Iron Man and company to wear him down? And that still doesn't account for the stealth retcon of Mjolnir being no-sold by his chest.
Maybe he doesn't solo and I was wrong about that but he's being dismissed rather unfairly. Thor vs. Orion would be a rough fight yet the majority is acting like Orion would stomp The Count who at least rivals Thor.
#22
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TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: alright I'm back. I'm no Marvel expert, but I'd guess Scarlet Witch was the most powerful member he took on. As far as fighting guys on par with Thor, no, he didn't encounter any in that instance, but Iron Man especially under Busiek isn't far behind and She-Hulk, Warbird, and Vision aren't exactly lightweights. He was simultaneously tanking their combined hits, among others. It wasn't just physical might they tossed at him either, he proved resistant to Scarlet Witch's magic, Songbird encasing him in a sound construct stronger than steel, and even Vision solidifying inside him.
I am genuinely baffled as to why he is being treated as a weak link here. If he was a tier below Thor then why didn't Thor solo him? If he was a tier below Thor why would it take three WEEKS of fighting for Iron Man and company to wear him down? And that still doesn't account for the stealth retcon of Mjolnir being no-sold by his chest.
Maybe he doesn't solo and I was wrong about that but he's being dismissed rather unfairly. Thor vs. Orion would be a rough fight yet the majority is acting like Orion would stomp The Count who at least rivals Thor.
#22
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: alright I'm back. I'm no Marvel expert, but I'd guess Scarlet Witch was the most powerful member he took on. As far as fighting guys on par with Thor, no, he didn't encounter any in that instance, but Iron Man especially under Busiek isn't far behind and She-Hulk, Warbird, and Vision aren't exactly lightweights. He was simultaneously tanking their combined hits, among others. It wasn't just physical might they tossed at him either, he proved resistant to Scarlet Witch's magic, Songbird encasing him in a sound construct stronger than steel, and even Vision solidifying inside him.
I am genuinely baffled as to why he is being treated as a weak link here. If he was a tier below Thor then why didn't Thor solo him? If he was a tier below Thor why would it take three WEEKS of fighting for Iron Man and company to wear him down? And that still doesn't account for the stealth retcon of Mjolnir being no-sold by his chest.
Maybe he doesn't solo and I was wrong about that but he's being dismissed rather unfairly. Thor vs. Orion would be a rough fight yet the majority is acting like Orion would stomp The Count who at least rivals Thor.
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#23
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Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Scarlet Witch is the obvious choice for damage output but Thor was tanking Scarlet Witch's hex blasts along with her and Havok's blasts combined. She had to BFR him as there was no defeating him in direct conflict according to the narration. So Thor has Nefaria outperformed against Wanda. Iron Man, Vision, She Hulk and Warbird are all mid tiers and they were the only ones that were even remotely a threat to Nefaria before and for comparison, Pre Core Breach Hulk was stated to be more powerful than Iron Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch & Ionic Wonder Man combined.
This is the same Wonder Man who could turn the tide against Nefaria when free from his control yet Hulk is more powerful than him and 3 other mid tiers. Breaking a stronger than steel construct is also child's play to a high tier
Plot and because the writers intended for him to be a match for Thor. However, Thor has gained more feats over the years of his appearance that put him above Nefaria on a consistent basis and Nefaria was losing power rapidly fighting someone as powerful as Thor. Which means fighting Billy or Orion will drain his power at a near, if not equal rate. The stealth retcon flies in the face of their actual fight so it can be dismissed pretty easily.
Because Nefaria only has a few feats that are actually impressive and years worth of jobbing. Thor and Hulk have long since outclassed Nefaria with their feats whereas the Count doesn't have the showings to contend with them. I'll quote from a cancelled Hulk vs Count Nefaria CAV to demonstrate why Nefaria's energy stamina is a significant disadvantage for him.
Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:
They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;
- Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...
- Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.
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#23
Posted by
Lvenger
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@tifalockhart: Scarlet Witch is the obvious choice for damage output but Thor was tanking Scarlet Witch's hex blasts along with her and Havok's blasts combined. She had to BFR him as there was no defeating him in direct conflict according to the narration. So Thor has Nefaria outperformed against Wanda. Iron Man, Vision, She Hulk and Warbird are all mid tiers and they were the only ones that were even remotely a threat to Nefaria before and for comparison, Pre Core Breach Hulk was stated to be more powerful than Iron Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch & Ionic Wonder Man combined.
This is the same Wonder Man who could turn the tide against Nefaria when free from his control yet Hulk is more powerful than him and 3 other mid tiers. Breaking a stronger than steel construct is also child's play to a high tier
Plot and because the writers intended for him to be a match for Thor. However, Thor has gained more feats over the years of his appearance that put him above Nefaria on a consistent basis and Nefaria was losing power rapidly fighting someone as powerful as Thor. Which means fighting Billy or Orion will drain his power at a near, if not equal rate. The stealth retcon flies in the face of their actual fight so it can be dismissed pretty easily.
Because Nefaria only has a few feats that are actually impressive and years worth of jobbing. Thor and Hulk have long since outclassed Nefaria with their feats whereas the Count doesn't have the showings to contend with them. I'll quote from a cancelled Hulk vs Count Nefaria CAV to demonstrate why Nefaria's energy stamina is a significant disadvantage for him.
Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:
They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;
- Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...
- Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.
#23
Posted by
Lvenger
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- 1 month, 3 days ago
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@tifalockhart: Scarlet Witch is the obvious choice for damage output but Thor was tanking Scarlet Witch's hex blasts along with her and Havok's blasts combined. She had to BFR him as there was no defeating him in direct conflict according to the narration. So Thor has Nefaria outperformed against Wanda. Iron Man, Vision, She Hulk and Warbird are all mid tiers and they were the only ones that were even remotely a threat to Nefaria before and for comparison, Pre Core Breach Hulk was stated to be more powerful than Iron Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch & Ionic Wonder Man combined.
This is the same Wonder Man who could turn the tide against Nefaria when free from his control yet Hulk is more powerful than him and 3 other mid tiers. Breaking a stronger than steel construct is also child's play to a high tier
Plot and because the writers intended for him to be a match for Thor. However, Thor has gained more feats over the years of his appearance that put him above Nefaria on a consistent basis and Nefaria was losing power rapidly fighting someone as powerful as Thor. Which means fighting Billy or Orion will drain his power at a near, if not equal rate. The stealth retcon flies in the face of their actual fight so it can be dismissed pretty easily.
Because Nefaria only has a few feats that are actually impressive and years worth of jobbing. Thor and Hulk have long since outclassed Nefaria with their feats whereas the Count doesn't have the showings to contend with them. I'll quote from a cancelled Hulk vs Count Nefaria CAV to demonstrate why Nefaria's energy stamina is a significant disadvantage for him.
Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:
They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;
- Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...
- Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.
#23
Posted by
Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
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@tifalockhart: Scarlet Witch is the obvious choice for damage output but Thor was tanking Scarlet Witch's hex blasts along with her and Havok's blasts combined. She had to BFR him as there was no defeating him in direct conflict according to the narration. So Thor has Nefaria outperformed against Wanda. Iron Man, Vision, She Hulk and Warbird are all mid tiers and they were the only ones that were even remotely a threat to Nefaria before and for comparison, Pre Core Breach Hulk was stated to be more powerful than Iron Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch & Ionic Wonder Man combined.
This is the same Wonder Man who could turn the tide against Nefaria when free from his control yet Hulk is more powerful than him and 3 other mid tiers. Breaking a stronger than steel construct is also child's play to a high tier
Plot and because the writers intended for him to be a match for Thor. However, Thor has gained more feats over the years of his appearance that put him above Nefaria on a consistent basis and Nefaria was losing power rapidly fighting someone as powerful as Thor. Which means fighting Billy or Orion will drain his power at a near, if not equal rate. The stealth retcon flies in the face of their actual fight so it can be dismissed pretty easily.
Because Nefaria only has a few feats that are actually impressive and years worth of jobbing. Thor and Hulk have long since outclassed Nefaria with their feats whereas the Count doesn't have the showings to contend with them. I'll quote from a cancelled Hulk vs Count Nefaria CAV to demonstrate why Nefaria's energy stamina is a significant disadvantage for him.
Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:
They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;
- Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...
- Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.
Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:
They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;
- Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...
- Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.
Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:
They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;
- Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...
- Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.
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#24
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rhistr
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Team 1. Give Thor a better teammate.
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#24
Posted by
rhistr
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Team 1. Give Thor a better teammate.
#24
Posted by
rhistr
(347 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
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Team 1. Give Thor a better teammate.
#24
Posted by
rhistr
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Team 1. Give Thor a better teammate.
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#25
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HeirToTheKingdom
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Team 2.
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#25
Posted by
HeirToTheKingdom
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Team 2.
#25
Posted by
HeirToTheKingdom
(9201 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
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Team 2.
#25
Posted by
HeirToTheKingdom
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Team 2.
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#26
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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@lvenger: Define "tanking." If Thor was no-selling the combined attacks of Scarlet Witch and Havok I'll have to concede the point.
Thor is not Hulk. I also don't recall Wonder Man posing a significant threat to Nefaria in a physical sense either (but my copy of issue #33 is missing so I could be wrong).
We don't know how much stronger than steel the construct was, but even Etrigan had trouble when his arms were pinned by a car wrapped around him. Nefaria was encased with the stuff and broke out with no apparent strain.
Dismissing a feat just because you don't agree with it leads nowhere. If we're going by volume of feats, then Orion has Yuga Khan beat.
Why do you disagree with the three weeks assessment?
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#26
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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- 1 month, 3 days ago
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@lvenger: Define "tanking." If Thor was no-selling the combined attacks of Scarlet Witch and Havok I'll have to concede the point.
Thor is not Hulk. I also don't recall Wonder Man posing a significant threat to Nefaria in a physical sense either (but my copy of issue #33 is missing so I could be wrong).
We don't know how much stronger than steel the construct was, but even Etrigan had trouble when his arms were pinned by a car wrapped around him. Nefaria was encased with the stuff and broke out with no apparent strain.
Dismissing a feat just because you don't agree with it leads nowhere. If we're going by volume of feats, then Orion has Yuga Khan beat.
Why do you disagree with the three weeks assessment?
#26
Posted by
TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
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@lvenger: Define "tanking." If Thor was no-selling the combined attacks of Scarlet Witch and Havok I'll have to concede the point.
Thor is not Hulk. I also don't recall Wonder Man posing a significant threat to Nefaria in a physical sense either (but my copy of issue #33 is missing so I could be wrong).
We don't know how much stronger than steel the construct was, but even Etrigan had trouble when his arms were pinned by a car wrapped around him. Nefaria was encased with the stuff and broke out with no apparent strain.
Dismissing a feat just because you don't agree with it leads nowhere. If we're going by volume of feats, then Orion has Yuga Khan beat.
Why do you disagree with the three weeks assessment?
#26
Posted by
TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
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@lvenger: Define "tanking." If Thor was no-selling the combined attacks of Scarlet Witch and Havok I'll have to concede the point.
Thor is not Hulk. I also don't recall Wonder Man posing a significant threat to Nefaria in a physical sense either (but my copy of issue #33 is missing so I could be wrong).
We don't know how much stronger than steel the construct was, but even Etrigan had trouble when his arms were pinned by a car wrapped around him. Nefaria was encased with the stuff and broke out with no apparent strain.
Dismissing a feat just because you don't agree with it leads nowhere. If we're going by volume of feats, then Orion has Yuga Khan beat.
Why do you disagree with the three weeks assessment?
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#27
Posted by
RampageTheFirst
(3827 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
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Team 1 with Orion as MVP.
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#27
Posted by
RampageTheFirst
(3827 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
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Team 1 with Orion as MVP.
#27
Posted by
RampageTheFirst
(3827 posts)
- 1 month, 3 days ago
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Team 1 with Orion as MVP.
#27
Posted by
RampageTheFirst
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- 1 month, 3 days ago
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Team 1 with Orion as MVP.
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#28
Posted by
IchiNiSanji
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- 1 month, 2 days ago
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Nefaria lacks endurance to be useful past a point in this battle.
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#28
Posted by
IchiNiSanji
(444 posts)
- 1 month, 2 days ago
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Nefaria lacks endurance to be useful past a point in this battle.
#28
Posted by
IchiNiSanji
(444 posts)
- 1 month, 2 days ago
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Nefaria lacks endurance to be useful past a point in this battle.
#28
Posted by
IchiNiSanji
(444 posts)
- 1 month, 2 days ago
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Nefaria lacks endurance to be useful past a point in this battle.
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#29
Edited by
Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 16 hours ago
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@tifalockhart: Well I'll post the scans from Uncanny Avengers #4 so you can see exactly how Thor fared. I think it's pretty hard to deny that what Thor is doing this isn't tanking these energy blasts.
In contrast, a less skilled and experienced Wanda was able to hurt Nefaria with her chaos magic.
That was during their first fight where Wonder Man wasn't a being of pure Ionic energy yet. When Simon was freed from Nefaria's control, he posed a much greater threat than he did back then.
It's still unquantifiable and still irrelevant given that stronger than steel is a vague statement. Destroying secondary adamantium would be a better measurement of strength but breaking something stronger than steel is something mid tiers should be able to do.
That's not what I'm saying though. I'm saying it can be dismissed because it flies in the face of how the fight actually went where Thor was the only Avenger who Nefaria was actually scared of and could consistently harm the Count.
Because to paraphrase the argument from before, Nefaria will be exerting significantly more effort against Orion and Captain Marvel than he would against a group of street levellers and mid tiers. That means he'll be expending energy and getting weaker and weaker whilst the fight progresses. Also, even if the energy drain wasn't a factor, Orion and Marvel outclass him by comparative feats.
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#29
Edited by
Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 16 hours ago
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@tifalockhart: Well I'll post the scans from Uncanny Avengers #4 so you can see exactly how Thor fared. I think it's pretty hard to deny that what Thor is doing this isn't tanking these energy blasts.
In contrast, a less skilled and experienced Wanda was able to hurt Nefaria with her chaos magic.
That was during their first fight where Wonder Man wasn't a being of pure Ionic energy yet. When Simon was freed from Nefaria's control, he posed a much greater threat than he did back then.
It's still unquantifiable and still irrelevant given that stronger than steel is a vague statement. Destroying secondary adamantium would be a better measurement of strength but breaking something stronger than steel is something mid tiers should be able to do.
That's not what I'm saying though. I'm saying it can be dismissed because it flies in the face of how the fight actually went where Thor was the only Avenger who Nefaria was actually scared of and could consistently harm the Count.
Because to paraphrase the argument from before, Nefaria will be exerting significantly more effort against Orion and Captain Marvel than he would against a group of street levellers and mid tiers. That means he'll be expending energy and getting weaker and weaker whilst the fight progresses. Also, even if the energy drain wasn't a factor, Orion and Marvel outclass him by comparative feats.
#29
Edited by
Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 16 hours ago
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@tifalockhart: Well I'll post the scans from Uncanny Avengers #4 so you can see exactly how Thor fared. I think it's pretty hard to deny that what Thor is doing this isn't tanking these energy blasts.
In contrast, a less skilled and experienced Wanda was able to hurt Nefaria with her chaos magic.
That was during their first fight where Wonder Man wasn't a being of pure Ionic energy yet. When Simon was freed from Nefaria's control, he posed a much greater threat than he did back then.
It's still unquantifiable and still irrelevant given that stronger than steel is a vague statement. Destroying secondary adamantium would be a better measurement of strength but breaking something stronger than steel is something mid tiers should be able to do.
That's not what I'm saying though. I'm saying it can be dismissed because it flies in the face of how the fight actually went where Thor was the only Avenger who Nefaria was actually scared of and could consistently harm the Count.
Because to paraphrase the argument from before, Nefaria will be exerting significantly more effort against Orion and Captain Marvel than he would against a group of street levellers and mid tiers. That means he'll be expending energy and getting weaker and weaker whilst the fight progresses. Also, even if the energy drain wasn't a factor, Orion and Marvel outclass him by comparative feats.
#29
Edited by
Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 1 month, 16 hours ago
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@tifalockhart: Well I'll post the scans from Uncanny Avengers #4 so you can see exactly how Thor fared. I think it's pretty hard to deny that what Thor is doing this isn't tanking these energy blasts.
In contrast, a less skilled and experienced Wanda was able to hurt Nefaria with her chaos magic.
That was during their first fight where Wonder Man wasn't a being of pure Ionic energy yet. When Simon was freed from Nefaria's control, he posed a much greater threat than he did back then.
It's still unquantifiable and still irrelevant given that stronger than steel is a vague statement. Destroying secondary adamantium would be a better measurement of strength but breaking something stronger than steel is something mid tiers should be able to do.
That's not what I'm saying though. I'm saying it can be dismissed because it flies in the face of how the fight actually went where Thor was the only Avenger who Nefaria was actually scared of and could consistently harm the Count.
Because to paraphrase the argument from before, Nefaria will be exerting significantly more effort against Orion and Captain Marvel than he would against a group of street levellers and mid tiers. That means he'll be expending energy and getting weaker and weaker whilst the fight progresses. Also, even if the energy drain wasn't a factor, Orion and Marvel outclass him by comparative feats.
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#30
Posted by
TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
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@lvenger: In that case I've got no choice but to concede Thor has more durability than Nefaria.
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#30
Posted by
TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
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@lvenger: In that case I've got no choice but to concede Thor has more durability than Nefaria.
#30
Posted by
TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
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@lvenger: In that case I've got no choice but to concede Thor has more durability than Nefaria.
#30
Posted by
TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
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@lvenger: In that case I've got no choice but to concede Thor has more durability than Nefaria.
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#31
Posted by
Ancient_0f_Days
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- 1 month, 2 hours ago
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Would it be a stretch to say Orion can one shot Nefaria with the Astro Force then go on the fight Thor considering his speed in the Astro-Harness? Honestly, he's a tier above him and if we look into his Astro Force feats, he can damn near continent bust, not even considering the sheer size of Apokolips and the amount of the planet Orion was destroying. Not to mention how he one shotted Kalibak, Mantis and Superman by flying into them. If Orion can one shot Nefaria before Thor can land a hit....Orion can solo
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#31
Posted by
Ancient_0f_Days
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- 1 month, 2 hours ago
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Would it be a stretch to say Orion can one shot Nefaria with the Astro Force then go on the fight Thor considering his speed in the Astro-Harness? Honestly, he's a tier above him and if we look into his Astro Force feats, he can damn near continent bust, not even considering the sheer size of Apokolips and the amount of the planet Orion was destroying. Not to mention how he one shotted Kalibak, Mantis and Superman by flying into them. If Orion can one shot Nefaria before Thor can land a hit....Orion can solo
#31
Posted by
Ancient_0f_Days
(16995 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
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Would it be a stretch to say Orion can one shot Nefaria with the Astro Force then go on the fight Thor considering his speed in the Astro-Harness? Honestly, he's a tier above him and if we look into his Astro Force feats, he can damn near continent bust, not even considering the sheer size of Apokolips and the amount of the planet Orion was destroying. Not to mention how he one shotted Kalibak, Mantis and Superman by flying into them. If Orion can one shot Nefaria before Thor can land a hit....Orion can solo
#31
Posted by
Ancient_0f_Days
(16995 posts)
- 1 month, 2 hours ago
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Would it be a stretch to say Orion can one shot Nefaria with the Astro Force then go on the fight Thor considering his speed in the Astro-Harness? Honestly, he's a tier above him and if we look into his Astro Force feats, he can damn near continent bust, not even considering the sheer size of Apokolips and the amount of the planet Orion was destroying. Not to mention how he one shotted Kalibak, Mantis and Superman by flying into them. If Orion can one shot Nefaria before Thor can land a hit....Orion can solo
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#32
Posted by
Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 30 days, 8 hours ago
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@tifalockhart: Thanks for the positive discussion though, I appreciated the reasonable counter arguments you put up, I could definitely see where you were coming from regarding Nefaria.
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#32
Posted by
Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 30 days, 8 hours ago
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@tifalockhart: Thanks for the positive discussion though, I appreciated the reasonable counter arguments you put up, I could definitely see where you were coming from regarding Nefaria.
#32
Posted by
Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 30 days, 8 hours ago
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@tifalockhart: Thanks for the positive discussion though, I appreciated the reasonable counter arguments you put up, I could definitely see where you were coming from regarding Nefaria.
#32
Posted by
Lvenger
(35799 posts)
- 30 days, 8 hours ago
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@tifalockhart: Thanks for the positive discussion though, I appreciated the reasonable counter arguments you put up, I could definitely see where you were coming from regarding Nefaria.
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#33
Posted by
TifaLockhart
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- 27 days, 23 hours ago
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@lvenger: Thanks. Despite adamantly disagreeing with you on a few occasions you definitely know how to debate properly.
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#33
Posted by
TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 27 days, 23 hours ago
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@lvenger: Thanks. Despite adamantly disagreeing with you on a few occasions you definitely know how to debate properly.
#33
Posted by
TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 27 days, 23 hours ago
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@lvenger: Thanks. Despite adamantly disagreeing with you on a few occasions you definitely know how to debate properly.
#33
Posted by
TifaLockhart
(20836 posts)
- 27 days, 23 hours ago
- Show Bio
@lvenger: Thanks. Despite adamantly disagreeing with you on a few occasions you definitely know how to debate properly.
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