The Bride vs CW Sara Lance & Ra's Al Ghul
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#1
Edited by
Nanji
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vs
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Pretty sure she defeats them solo, but can she take them both? Everyone has gear pictured. Assume good teamwork.
Callouts:
Arrow:
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#2
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PeterParkerJr
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Beatrix takes them both.
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#3
Posted by
Pokeysteve
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I want to say Kiddo but something is holding me back even though she has the feats.
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#4
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VashtaNerada88
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Beatrix
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#5
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Leo-343
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Beatrix kills them.
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#6
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SamJackson
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I honestly don't think she can take them both. I'll have to go over some of her feats.
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#7
Posted by
Silverrings
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Kiddo really should be able to win this. She's tough, she's used to being outnumbered and she can match, or surpass, them both in skill and ferocity. It'd be a good fight, but the Bride should survive.
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#8
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VashtaNerada88
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@samjackson:
1- inch punch through dimension lumber & punching her way out a coffin with hundreds of lbs. of dirt on top of it.
ridiculous pain tolerance & endurance, She fought through the 88's, Gogo, and O-ren. Gogo/o-ren both landed direct hits on Kiddo and she still beat them.
Knows multiple martial arts, pressure strikes, and sword styles. O, and her Hanzo blade cuts other swords in half.
she should certainly take the solid majority.
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#9
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phoenixdiamond616
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Currently I'd say Sara Lance is capable to give Beatrix a fight by her own... she might as well be able to win
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#10
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lubub55
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Beatrix.
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#11
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SkySanji
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Kiddo mid diff.
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#12
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The_Hajduk
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Kill Bill Pt 2 is literally one of my favorite entertainment things ever and I'm seeing a lot of love for the Bride, but I'm not seeing any real objective explanations of why she wins. Her big feat according to Comic Vine is beating the entire Crazy 88, but Bill literally said in the next movie that there wasn't really 88 of them and they just had the name because it was 'cool.'
So nobody really knows how many fodder she killed. And her fodder management wasn't really on point, everybody knows that the Crazy 88 just waved swords in the background while the Bride killed two or three of them at a time.
I usually don't resort to these types of arguments, but it's relevant because I think everybody on Comic Vine hangs onto that feat for the Bride. The Arrowverse has plenty high level fodder feats. Green Arrow peaked when he fought "an endless wave" of Special Forces early in S4, mostly off-screen, with the plan being that he was supposed to just hold everyone off until the team could accomplish their mission inside. He did this right after training under and barely defeating Ra's.
Ra's has what I consider a top level fodder feat, but at only eight.
On paper, their ninja.
In feats, they've got plenty.
As far as choreography, I like this feat because for the most part, these ninja are actually crowd managed by Ra's really well and they try to act as a team and all jump in. They fight as coordinated as they can, but Ra's genuinely outskills the team. I think he only had a dagger when he started.
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#13
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the_red_viper
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@the_hajduk:
Bill did say that there weren't really 88 of them but he didn't say if they were fewer or more than 88. Either way, it's a few good dozens and a lot more than 8, lol. And while the choreography was indeed pretty ridiculous, it's mostly a nod to old-school kung-fu movies (the entire 2 movies are essentially a nod to old-school kung-fu movies tbh), but I think that the choreography shouldn't hold more water than the fact that Kiddo single-handedly slaughtered several dozen Yakuza ninjas within 6 minutes give or take, AFTER fighting Gogo, taking a direct hit to the ribs from her table-busting meteor-hammer and killing her... while holding back. I'm of the mind that choreography should hold no water at all in live-action fight scenes. If you analyze fight scenes from a realistic point of view, 99% of fictional characters are worse than amateurs. There's a video. For example, that analyzes the "Tower of Joy" scene in GoT, made by a guy who's adept at HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) and according to his analysis, every single character there makes rookie mistakes with every second swing even though we as viewers know that they're experts (one of the characters in that scene is even called "The Greatest Swordsman Who Ever Lived"). Choreography is meant to look cool, not to actually tell us of a character's martial skill level. The writer's/director's intent is what counts. In my eyes, determining a live-action fighter's skill according to choreography, is akin to determining a comics fighter's skill according to the artwork.
About Ra's and the dagger, well no, he started with his sword. That weird elongated thing was his ring.
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#14
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ANTHP2000
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Either of them could probably solo.
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#15
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The_Hajduk
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@the_red_viper said:
@the_hajduk:
Bill did say that there weren't really 88 of them but he didn't say if they were fewer or more than 88. Either way, it's a few good dozens and a lot more than 8, lol. And while the choreography was indeed pretty ridiculous, it's mostly a nod to old-school kung-fu movies (the entire 2 movies are essentially a nod to old-school kung-fu movies tbh), but I think that the choreography shouldn't hold more water than the fact that Kiddo single-handedly slaughtered several dozen Yakuza ninjas within 6 minutes give or take, AFTER fighting Gogo, taking a direct hit to the ribs from her table-busting meteor-hammer and killing her... while holding back. I'm of the mind that choreography should hold no water at all in live-action fight scenes. If you analyze fight scenes from a realistic point of view, 99% of fictional characters are worse than amateurs. There's a video. For example, that analyzes the "Tower of Joy" scene in GoT, made by a guy who's adept at HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) and according to his analysis, every single character there makes rookie mistakes with every second swing even though we as viewers know that they're experts (one of the characters in that scene is even called "The Greatest Swordsman Who Ever Lived"). Choreography is meant to look cool, not to actually tell us of a character's martial skill level. The writer's/director's intent is what counts. In my eyes, determining a live-action fighter's skill according to choreography, is akin to determining a comics fighter's skill according to the artwork.
About Ra's and the dagger, well no, he started with his sword. That weird elongated thing was his ring.
It is quite a feat, there's no doubt about that. Early Arrow has always had scenes of heroes beating a dozen or two dozen men. Later on and in Legends of Tomorrow, we started getting some more high end fodder feats, lots of superhuman fodder. It tops out with Green Arrow's "endless wave of Ghosts" feat (which is apparently how it's described in the script even though nobody gives a number in the show) that I mentioned before, and that feat is enough to prove Kiddo's big feat isn't in a different realm. To some interpretations it might be a better feat (it only hurts that most of it is offscreen)
If we look at it from another perspective now, Ra's al Ghul has all the on paper advantages. He's been killing since he was a kid and has lived between 200-300 years (never outright confirmed, many hints by him and Darhk point to the both of them being somewhere in this range). In that time he's had some of the best training thanks to the League, whose training and efficacy is very well documented across the Arrowverse. We've also never seen him struggle in a fight except once, all he did for a season was curbstomp everybody, including Arrow who had two and a half seasons of feats by then, and Nyssa who was on that same elite level, and then Thea who wasn't that far behind them. Malcolm Merlyn also thought that Ra's would defeat him if they fought. Arrowverse tippy top tiers should be better than the five Deadly Vipers IMO, although the Vipers are better than most fighters in the Arrowverse.
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#16
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the_red_viper
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@the_hajduk: I'm not big on CW, and I've never watched any Arrow episode more than once (I've also not watched season 6 yet), so I really don't recall feats well enough to say, but I definitely don't remember any feat of one single person beating a dozen, let alone 2 dozen enemies at the same time, while surrounded, and without taking a hit, and without any sneak attacks or long-ranged weapons. If you have any sort of example to some CW street level fighter doing something like that, I'll be glad to see it.
Ra's being super-old is nice I guess, but that can be compared to Pai Mei. He was supposedly around 1,000 years old (Bill mentioned the year 1,003 or something when he told Kiddo the legend of Pai Mei and the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique, the latter proved to be true). While she was never seen to be defeating Mei on screen, we do see them train side by side and they are perfectly equal, moving in complete unison, Kiddo actually appeared to be faster.
The Vipers have very little feats going for them. They can only be gauged by how much of a fight they have Kiddo before losing. The only one who I'd say could match her is probably Vernita Green, whose fight with Kiddo was inconclusive with Kiddo being in her prime (unlike O-Ren who fought a fatigued and injured Kiddo, for example). And of course there's Bill himself.
Anyway, if you can show me feats comparable to the Showdown at the House of Blue Leaves, that'd be cool .
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The Bride vs CW Sara Lance & Ra's Al Ghul
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#1
Edited by
Nanji
(55 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
- Show Bio
vs
&
Pretty sure she defeats them solo, but can she take them both? Everyone has gear pictured. Assume good teamwork.
Callouts:
Arrow:
@funsiized@princearagorn1@rogueshadow@jokerpoker@godzilla44@rbt@pokeysteve@fetts@fallschirmjager@princearagorn1@lukehero@allstarsuperman@deathstroke19@homicidalmaniac@sophia89@captain_batman_ftw@strafe_prower@supremegeneration@nfactor1995@nerdchore@sromero78@the_real_seaman@jdg@kcminato
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#2
Posted by
PeterParkerJr
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Beatrix takes them both.
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#3
Posted by
Pokeysteve
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- 2 years, 6 months ago
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I want to say Kiddo but something is holding me back even though she has the feats.
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#4
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VashtaNerada88
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Beatrix
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#5
Posted by
Leo-343
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Beatrix kills them.
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#6
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SamJackson
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I honestly don't think she can take them both. I'll have to go over some of her feats.
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#7
Posted by
Silverrings
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Kiddo really should be able to win this. She's tough, she's used to being outnumbered and she can match, or surpass, them both in skill and ferocity. It'd be a good fight, but the Bride should survive.
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#8
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VashtaNerada88
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@samjackson:
1- inch punch through dimension lumber & punching her way out a coffin with hundreds of lbs. of dirt on top of it.
ridiculous pain tolerance & endurance, She fought through the 88's, Gogo, and O-ren. Gogo/o-ren both landed direct hits on Kiddo and she still beat them.
Knows multiple martial arts, pressure strikes, and sword styles. O, and her Hanzo blade cuts other swords in half.
she should certainly take the solid majority.
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#9
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phoenixdiamond616
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Currently I'd say Sara Lance is capable to give Beatrix a fight by her own... she might as well be able to win
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#10
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lubub55
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Beatrix.
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#11
Edited by
SkySanji
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Kiddo mid diff.
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#12
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The_Hajduk
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Kill Bill Pt 2 is literally one of my favorite entertainment things ever and I'm seeing a lot of love for the Bride, but I'm not seeing any real objective explanations of why she wins. Her big feat according to Comic Vine is beating the entire Crazy 88, but Bill literally said in the next movie that there wasn't really 88 of them and they just had the name because it was 'cool.'
So nobody really knows how many fodder she killed. And her fodder management wasn't really on point, everybody knows that the Crazy 88 just waved swords in the background while the Bride killed two or three of them at a time.
I usually don't resort to these types of arguments, but it's relevant because I think everybody on Comic Vine hangs onto that feat for the Bride. The Arrowverse has plenty high level fodder feats. Green Arrow peaked when he fought "an endless wave" of Special Forces early in S4, mostly off-screen, with the plan being that he was supposed to just hold everyone off until the team could accomplish their mission inside. He did this right after training under and barely defeating Ra's.
Ra's has what I consider a top level fodder feat, but at only eight.
On paper, their ninja.
In feats, they've got plenty.
As far as choreography, I like this feat because for the most part, these ninja are actually crowd managed by Ra's really well and they try to act as a team and all jump in. They fight as coordinated as they can, but Ra's genuinely outskills the team. I think he only had a dagger when he started.
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#13
Edited by
the_red_viper
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@the_hajduk:
Bill did say that there weren't really 88 of them but he didn't say if they were fewer or more than 88. Either way, it's a few good dozens and a lot more than 8, lol. And while the choreography was indeed pretty ridiculous, it's mostly a nod to old-school kung-fu movies (the entire 2 movies are essentially a nod to old-school kung-fu movies tbh), but I think that the choreography shouldn't hold more water than the fact that Kiddo single-handedly slaughtered several dozen Yakuza ninjas within 6 minutes give or take, AFTER fighting Gogo, taking a direct hit to the ribs from her table-busting meteor-hammer and killing her... while holding back. I'm of the mind that choreography should hold no water at all in live-action fight scenes. If you analyze fight scenes from a realistic point of view, 99% of fictional characters are worse than amateurs. There's a video. For example, that analyzes the "Tower of Joy" scene in GoT, made by a guy who's adept at HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) and according to his analysis, every single character there makes rookie mistakes with every second swing even though we as viewers know that they're experts (one of the characters in that scene is even called "The Greatest Swordsman Who Ever Lived"). Choreography is meant to look cool, not to actually tell us of a character's martial skill level. The writer's/director's intent is what counts. In my eyes, determining a live-action fighter's skill according to choreography, is akin to determining a comics fighter's skill according to the artwork.
About Ra's and the dagger, well no, he started with his sword. That weird elongated thing was his ring.
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#14
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ANTHP2000
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Either of them could probably solo.
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#15
Edited by
The_Hajduk
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- 1 month, 12 hours ago
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@the_red_viper said:
@the_hajduk:
Bill did say that there weren't really 88 of them but he didn't say if they were fewer or more than 88. Either way, it's a few good dozens and a lot more than 8, lol. And while the choreography was indeed pretty ridiculous, it's mostly a nod to old-school kung-fu movies (the entire 2 movies are essentially a nod to old-school kung-fu movies tbh), but I think that the choreography shouldn't hold more water than the fact that Kiddo single-handedly slaughtered several dozen Yakuza ninjas within 6 minutes give or take, AFTER fighting Gogo, taking a direct hit to the ribs from her table-busting meteor-hammer and killing her... while holding back. I'm of the mind that choreography should hold no water at all in live-action fight scenes. If you analyze fight scenes from a realistic point of view, 99% of fictional characters are worse than amateurs. There's a video. For example, that analyzes the "Tower of Joy" scene in GoT, made by a guy who's adept at HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) and according to his analysis, every single character there makes rookie mistakes with every second swing even though we as viewers know that they're experts (one of the characters in that scene is even called "The Greatest Swordsman Who Ever Lived"). Choreography is meant to look cool, not to actually tell us of a character's martial skill level. The writer's/director's intent is what counts. In my eyes, determining a live-action fighter's skill according to choreography, is akin to determining a comics fighter's skill according to the artwork.
About Ra's and the dagger, well no, he started with his sword. That weird elongated thing was his ring.
It is quite a feat, there's no doubt about that. Early Arrow has always had scenes of heroes beating a dozen or two dozen men. Later on and in Legends of Tomorrow, we started getting some more high end fodder feats, lots of superhuman fodder. It tops out with Green Arrow's "endless wave of Ghosts" feat (which is apparently how it's described in the script even though nobody gives a number in the show) that I mentioned before, and that feat is enough to prove Kiddo's big feat isn't in a different realm. To some interpretations it might be a better feat (it only hurts that most of it is offscreen)
If we look at it from another perspective now, Ra's al Ghul has all the on paper advantages. He's been killing since he was a kid and has lived between 200-300 years (never outright confirmed, many hints by him and Darhk point to the both of them being somewhere in this range). In that time he's had some of the best training thanks to the League, whose training and efficacy is very well documented across the Arrowverse. We've also never seen him struggle in a fight except once, all he did for a season was curbstomp everybody, including Arrow who had two and a half seasons of feats by then, and Nyssa who was on that same elite level, and then Thea who wasn't that far behind them. Malcolm Merlyn also thought that Ra's would defeat him if they fought. Arrowverse tippy top tiers should be better than the five Deadly Vipers IMO, although the Vipers are better than most fighters in the Arrowverse.
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#16
Posted by
the_red_viper
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@the_hajduk: I'm not big on CW, and I've never watched any Arrow episode more than once (I've also not watched season 6 yet), so I really don't recall feats well enough to say, but I definitely don't remember any feat of one single person beating a dozen, let alone 2 dozen enemies at the same time, while surrounded, and without taking a hit, and without any sneak attacks or long-ranged weapons. If you have any sort of example to some CW street level fighter doing something like that, I'll be glad to see it.
Ra's being super-old is nice I guess, but that can be compared to Pai Mei. He was supposedly around 1,000 years old (Bill mentioned the year 1,003 or something when he told Kiddo the legend of Pai Mei and the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique, the latter proved to be true). While she was never seen to be defeating Mei on screen, we do see them train side by side and they are perfectly equal, moving in complete unison, Kiddo actually appeared to be faster.
The Vipers have very little feats going for them. They can only be gauged by how much of a fight they have Kiddo before losing. The only one who I'd say could match her is probably Vernita Green, whose fight with Kiddo was inconclusive with Kiddo being in her prime (unlike O-Ren who fought a fatigued and injured Kiddo, for example). And of course there's Bill himself.
Anyway, if you can show me feats comparable to the Showdown at the House of Blue Leaves, that'd be cool .
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#1
Edited by
Nanji
(55 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
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vs
&
Pretty sure she defeats them solo, but can she take them both? Everyone has gear pictured. Assume good teamwork.
Callouts:
Arrow:
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#2
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PeterParkerJr
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Beatrix takes them both.
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#3
Posted by
Pokeysteve
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I want to say Kiddo but something is holding me back even though she has the feats.
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#4
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VashtaNerada88
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Beatrix
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#5
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Leo-343
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Beatrix kills them.
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#6
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SamJackson
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I honestly don't think she can take them both. I'll have to go over some of her feats.
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#7
Posted by
Silverrings
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Kiddo really should be able to win this. She's tough, she's used to being outnumbered and she can match, or surpass, them both in skill and ferocity. It'd be a good fight, but the Bride should survive.
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#8
Posted by
VashtaNerada88
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@samjackson:
1- inch punch through dimension lumber & punching her way out a coffin with hundreds of lbs. of dirt on top of it.
ridiculous pain tolerance & endurance, She fought through the 88's, Gogo, and O-ren. Gogo/o-ren both landed direct hits on Kiddo and she still beat them.
Knows multiple martial arts, pressure strikes, and sword styles. O, and her Hanzo blade cuts other swords in half.
she should certainly take the solid majority.
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#9
Posted by
phoenixdiamond616
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Currently I'd say Sara Lance is capable to give Beatrix a fight by her own... she might as well be able to win
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#10
Posted by
lubub55
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Beatrix.
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#11
Edited by
SkySanji
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Kiddo mid diff.
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#12
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The_Hajduk
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Kill Bill Pt 2 is literally one of my favorite entertainment things ever and I'm seeing a lot of love for the Bride, but I'm not seeing any real objective explanations of why she wins. Her big feat according to Comic Vine is beating the entire Crazy 88, but Bill literally said in the next movie that there wasn't really 88 of them and they just had the name because it was 'cool.'
So nobody really knows how many fodder she killed. And her fodder management wasn't really on point, everybody knows that the Crazy 88 just waved swords in the background while the Bride killed two or three of them at a time.
I usually don't resort to these types of arguments, but it's relevant because I think everybody on Comic Vine hangs onto that feat for the Bride. The Arrowverse has plenty high level fodder feats. Green Arrow peaked when he fought "an endless wave" of Special Forces early in S4, mostly off-screen, with the plan being that he was supposed to just hold everyone off until the team could accomplish their mission inside. He did this right after training under and barely defeating Ra's.
Ra's has what I consider a top level fodder feat, but at only eight.
On paper, their ninja.
In feats, they've got plenty.
As far as choreography, I like this feat because for the most part, these ninja are actually crowd managed by Ra's really well and they try to act as a team and all jump in. They fight as coordinated as they can, but Ra's genuinely outskills the team. I think he only had a dagger when he started.
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#13
Edited by
the_red_viper
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@the_hajduk:
Bill did say that there weren't really 88 of them but he didn't say if they were fewer or more than 88. Either way, it's a few good dozens and a lot more than 8, lol. And while the choreography was indeed pretty ridiculous, it's mostly a nod to old-school kung-fu movies (the entire 2 movies are essentially a nod to old-school kung-fu movies tbh), but I think that the choreography shouldn't hold more water than the fact that Kiddo single-handedly slaughtered several dozen Yakuza ninjas within 6 minutes give or take, AFTER fighting Gogo, taking a direct hit to the ribs from her table-busting meteor-hammer and killing her... while holding back. I'm of the mind that choreography should hold no water at all in live-action fight scenes. If you analyze fight scenes from a realistic point of view, 99% of fictional characters are worse than amateurs. There's a video. For example, that analyzes the "Tower of Joy" scene in GoT, made by a guy who's adept at HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) and according to his analysis, every single character there makes rookie mistakes with every second swing even though we as viewers know that they're experts (one of the characters in that scene is even called "The Greatest Swordsman Who Ever Lived"). Choreography is meant to look cool, not to actually tell us of a character's martial skill level. The writer's/director's intent is what counts. In my eyes, determining a live-action fighter's skill according to choreography, is akin to determining a comics fighter's skill according to the artwork.
About Ra's and the dagger, well no, he started with his sword. That weird elongated thing was his ring.
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#14
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ANTHP2000
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Either of them could probably solo.
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#15
Edited by
The_Hajduk
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@the_red_viper said:
@the_hajduk:
Bill did say that there weren't really 88 of them but he didn't say if they were fewer or more than 88. Either way, it's a few good dozens and a lot more than 8, lol. And while the choreography was indeed pretty ridiculous, it's mostly a nod to old-school kung-fu movies (the entire 2 movies are essentially a nod to old-school kung-fu movies tbh), but I think that the choreography shouldn't hold more water than the fact that Kiddo single-handedly slaughtered several dozen Yakuza ninjas within 6 minutes give or take, AFTER fighting Gogo, taking a direct hit to the ribs from her table-busting meteor-hammer and killing her... while holding back. I'm of the mind that choreography should hold no water at all in live-action fight scenes. If you analyze fight scenes from a realistic point of view, 99% of fictional characters are worse than amateurs. There's a video. For example, that analyzes the "Tower of Joy" scene in GoT, made by a guy who's adept at HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) and according to his analysis, every single character there makes rookie mistakes with every second swing even though we as viewers know that they're experts (one of the characters in that scene is even called "The Greatest Swordsman Who Ever Lived"). Choreography is meant to look cool, not to actually tell us of a character's martial skill level. The writer's/director's intent is what counts. In my eyes, determining a live-action fighter's skill according to choreography, is akin to determining a comics fighter's skill according to the artwork.
About Ra's and the dagger, well no, he started with his sword. That weird elongated thing was his ring.
It is quite a feat, there's no doubt about that. Early Arrow has always had scenes of heroes beating a dozen or two dozen men. Later on and in Legends of Tomorrow, we started getting some more high end fodder feats, lots of superhuman fodder. It tops out with Green Arrow's "endless wave of Ghosts" feat (which is apparently how it's described in the script even though nobody gives a number in the show) that I mentioned before, and that feat is enough to prove Kiddo's big feat isn't in a different realm. To some interpretations it might be a better feat (it only hurts that most of it is offscreen)
If we look at it from another perspective now, Ra's al Ghul has all the on paper advantages. He's been killing since he was a kid and has lived between 200-300 years (never outright confirmed, many hints by him and Darhk point to the both of them being somewhere in this range). In that time he's had some of the best training thanks to the League, whose training and efficacy is very well documented across the Arrowverse. We've also never seen him struggle in a fight except once, all he did for a season was curbstomp everybody, including Arrow who had two and a half seasons of feats by then, and Nyssa who was on that same elite level, and then Thea who wasn't that far behind them. Malcolm Merlyn also thought that Ra's would defeat him if they fought. Arrowverse tippy top tiers should be better than the five Deadly Vipers IMO, although the Vipers are better than most fighters in the Arrowverse.
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#16
Posted by
the_red_viper
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@the_hajduk: I'm not big on CW, and I've never watched any Arrow episode more than once (I've also not watched season 6 yet), so I really don't recall feats well enough to say, but I definitely don't remember any feat of one single person beating a dozen, let alone 2 dozen enemies at the same time, while surrounded, and without taking a hit, and without any sneak attacks or long-ranged weapons. If you have any sort of example to some CW street level fighter doing something like that, I'll be glad to see it.
Ra's being super-old is nice I guess, but that can be compared to Pai Mei. He was supposedly around 1,000 years old (Bill mentioned the year 1,003 or something when he told Kiddo the legend of Pai Mei and the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique, the latter proved to be true). While she was never seen to be defeating Mei on screen, we do see them train side by side and they are perfectly equal, moving in complete unison, Kiddo actually appeared to be faster.
The Vipers have very little feats going for them. They can only be gauged by how much of a fight they have Kiddo before losing. The only one who I'd say could match her is probably Vernita Green, whose fight with Kiddo was inconclusive with Kiddo being in her prime (unlike O-Ren who fought a fatigued and injured Kiddo, for example). And of course there's Bill himself.
Anyway, if you can show me feats comparable to the Showdown at the House of Blue Leaves, that'd be cool .
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#1
Edited by
Nanji
(55 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
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vs
&
Pretty sure she defeats them solo, but can she take them both? Everyone has gear pictured. Assume good teamwork.
Callouts:
Arrow:
@funsiized@princearagorn1@rogueshadow@jokerpoker@godzilla44@rbt@pokeysteve@fetts@fallschirmjager@princearagorn1@lukehero@allstarsuperman@deathstroke19@homicidalmaniac@sophia89@captain_batman_ftw@strafe_prower@supremegeneration@nfactor1995@nerdchore@sromero78@the_real_seaman@jdg@kcminato
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#2
Posted by
PeterParkerJr
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Beatrix takes them both.
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#3
Posted by
Pokeysteve
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- 2 years, 6 months ago
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I want to say Kiddo but something is holding me back even though she has the feats.
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#4
Posted by
VashtaNerada88
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Beatrix
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#5
Posted by
Leo-343
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Beatrix kills them.
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#6
Posted by
SamJackson
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I honestly don't think she can take them both. I'll have to go over some of her feats.
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#7
Posted by
Silverrings
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- 2 years, 6 months ago
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Kiddo really should be able to win this. She's tough, she's used to being outnumbered and she can match, or surpass, them both in skill and ferocity. It'd be a good fight, but the Bride should survive.
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#8
Posted by
VashtaNerada88
(3498 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
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@samjackson:
1- inch punch through dimension lumber & punching her way out a coffin with hundreds of lbs. of dirt on top of it.
ridiculous pain tolerance & endurance, She fought through the 88's, Gogo, and O-ren. Gogo/o-ren both landed direct hits on Kiddo and she still beat them.
Knows multiple martial arts, pressure strikes, and sword styles. O, and her Hanzo blade cuts other swords in half.
she should certainly take the solid majority.
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#9
Posted by
phoenixdiamond616
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Currently I'd say Sara Lance is capable to give Beatrix a fight by her own... she might as well be able to win
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#10
Posted by
lubub55
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Beatrix.
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#11
Edited by
SkySanji
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- 1 month, 1 day ago
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Kiddo mid diff.
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#12
Posted by
The_Hajduk
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- 1 month, 1 day ago
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Kill Bill Pt 2 is literally one of my favorite entertainment things ever and I'm seeing a lot of love for the Bride, but I'm not seeing any real objective explanations of why she wins. Her big feat according to Comic Vine is beating the entire Crazy 88, but Bill literally said in the next movie that there wasn't really 88 of them and they just had the name because it was 'cool.'
So nobody really knows how many fodder she killed. And her fodder management wasn't really on point, everybody knows that the Crazy 88 just waved swords in the background while the Bride killed two or three of them at a time.
I usually don't resort to these types of arguments, but it's relevant because I think everybody on Comic Vine hangs onto that feat for the Bride. The Arrowverse has plenty high level fodder feats. Green Arrow peaked when he fought "an endless wave" of Special Forces early in S4, mostly off-screen, with the plan being that he was supposed to just hold everyone off until the team could accomplish their mission inside. He did this right after training under and barely defeating Ra's.
Ra's has what I consider a top level fodder feat, but at only eight.
On paper, their ninja.
In feats, they've got plenty.
As far as choreography, I like this feat because for the most part, these ninja are actually crowd managed by Ra's really well and they try to act as a team and all jump in. They fight as coordinated as they can, but Ra's genuinely outskills the team. I think he only had a dagger when he started.
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#13
Edited by
the_red_viper
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@the_hajduk:
Bill did say that there weren't really 88 of them but he didn't say if they were fewer or more than 88. Either way, it's a few good dozens and a lot more than 8, lol. And while the choreography was indeed pretty ridiculous, it's mostly a nod to old-school kung-fu movies (the entire 2 movies are essentially a nod to old-school kung-fu movies tbh), but I think that the choreography shouldn't hold more water than the fact that Kiddo single-handedly slaughtered several dozen Yakuza ninjas within 6 minutes give or take, AFTER fighting Gogo, taking a direct hit to the ribs from her table-busting meteor-hammer and killing her... while holding back. I'm of the mind that choreography should hold no water at all in live-action fight scenes. If you analyze fight scenes from a realistic point of view, 99% of fictional characters are worse than amateurs. There's a video. For example, that analyzes the "Tower of Joy" scene in GoT, made by a guy who's adept at HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) and according to his analysis, every single character there makes rookie mistakes with every second swing even though we as viewers know that they're experts (one of the characters in that scene is even called "The Greatest Swordsman Who Ever Lived"). Choreography is meant to look cool, not to actually tell us of a character's martial skill level. The writer's/director's intent is what counts. In my eyes, determining a live-action fighter's skill according to choreography, is akin to determining a comics fighter's skill according to the artwork.
About Ra's and the dagger, well no, he started with his sword. That weird elongated thing was his ring.
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#14
Posted by
ANTHP2000
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Either of them could probably solo.
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#15
Edited by
The_Hajduk
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- 1 month, 12 hours ago
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@the_red_viper said:
@the_hajduk:
Bill did say that there weren't really 88 of them but he didn't say if they were fewer or more than 88. Either way, it's a few good dozens and a lot more than 8, lol. And while the choreography was indeed pretty ridiculous, it's mostly a nod to old-school kung-fu movies (the entire 2 movies are essentially a nod to old-school kung-fu movies tbh), but I think that the choreography shouldn't hold more water than the fact that Kiddo single-handedly slaughtered several dozen Yakuza ninjas within 6 minutes give or take, AFTER fighting Gogo, taking a direct hit to the ribs from her table-busting meteor-hammer and killing her... while holding back. I'm of the mind that choreography should hold no water at all in live-action fight scenes. If you analyze fight scenes from a realistic point of view, 99% of fictional characters are worse than amateurs. There's a video. For example, that analyzes the "Tower of Joy" scene in GoT, made by a guy who's adept at HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) and according to his analysis, every single character there makes rookie mistakes with every second swing even though we as viewers know that they're experts (one of the characters in that scene is even called "The Greatest Swordsman Who Ever Lived"). Choreography is meant to look cool, not to actually tell us of a character's martial skill level. The writer's/director's intent is what counts. In my eyes, determining a live-action fighter's skill according to choreography, is akin to determining a comics fighter's skill according to the artwork.
About Ra's and the dagger, well no, he started with his sword. That weird elongated thing was his ring.
It is quite a feat, there's no doubt about that. Early Arrow has always had scenes of heroes beating a dozen or two dozen men. Later on and in Legends of Tomorrow, we started getting some more high end fodder feats, lots of superhuman fodder. It tops out with Green Arrow's "endless wave of Ghosts" feat (which is apparently how it's described in the script even though nobody gives a number in the show) that I mentioned before, and that feat is enough to prove Kiddo's big feat isn't in a different realm. To some interpretations it might be a better feat (it only hurts that most of it is offscreen)
If we look at it from another perspective now, Ra's al Ghul has all the on paper advantages. He's been killing since he was a kid and has lived between 200-300 years (never outright confirmed, many hints by him and Darhk point to the both of them being somewhere in this range). In that time he's had some of the best training thanks to the League, whose training and efficacy is very well documented across the Arrowverse. We've also never seen him struggle in a fight except once, all he did for a season was curbstomp everybody, including Arrow who had two and a half seasons of feats by then, and Nyssa who was on that same elite level, and then Thea who wasn't that far behind them. Malcolm Merlyn also thought that Ra's would defeat him if they fought. Arrowverse tippy top tiers should be better than the five Deadly Vipers IMO, although the Vipers are better than most fighters in the Arrowverse.
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#16
Posted by
the_red_viper
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- 1 month, 11 hours ago
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@the_hajduk: I'm not big on CW, and I've never watched any Arrow episode more than once (I've also not watched season 6 yet), so I really don't recall feats well enough to say, but I definitely don't remember any feat of one single person beating a dozen, let alone 2 dozen enemies at the same time, while surrounded, and without taking a hit, and without any sneak attacks or long-ranged weapons. If you have any sort of example to some CW street level fighter doing something like that, I'll be glad to see it.
Ra's being super-old is nice I guess, but that can be compared to Pai Mei. He was supposedly around 1,000 years old (Bill mentioned the year 1,003 or something when he told Kiddo the legend of Pai Mei and the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique, the latter proved to be true). While she was never seen to be defeating Mei on screen, we do see them train side by side and they are perfectly equal, moving in complete unison, Kiddo actually appeared to be faster.
The Vipers have very little feats going for them. They can only be gauged by how much of a fight they have Kiddo before losing. The only one who I'd say could match her is probably Vernita Green, whose fight with Kiddo was inconclusive with Kiddo being in her prime (unlike O-Ren who fought a fatigued and injured Kiddo, for example). And of course there's Bill himself.
Anyway, if you can show me feats comparable to the Showdown at the House of Blue Leaves, that'd be cool .
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#1
Edited by
Nanji
(55 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
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vs
&
Pretty sure she defeats them solo, but can she take them both? Everyone has gear pictured. Assume good teamwork.
Callouts:
Arrow:
@funsiized@princearagorn1@rogueshadow@jokerpoker@godzilla44@rbt@pokeysteve@fetts@fallschirmjager@princearagorn1@lukehero@allstarsuperman@deathstroke19@homicidalmaniac@sophia89@captain_batman_ftw@strafe_prower@supremegeneration@nfactor1995@nerdchore@sromero78@the_real_seaman@jdg@kcminato
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#2
Posted by
PeterParkerJr
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- 2 years, 6 months ago
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Beatrix takes them both.
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#3
Posted by
Pokeysteve
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- 2 years, 6 months ago
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I want to say Kiddo but something is holding me back even though she has the feats.
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#4
Posted by
VashtaNerada88
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- 2 years, 6 months ago
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Beatrix
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#5
Posted by
Leo-343
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- 2 years, 6 months ago
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Beatrix kills them.
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#6
Posted by
SamJackson
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- 2 years, 6 months ago
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I honestly don't think she can take them both. I'll have to go over some of her feats.
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#7
Posted by
Silverrings
(5452 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
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Kiddo really should be able to win this. She's tough, she's used to being outnumbered and she can match, or surpass, them both in skill and ferocity. It'd be a good fight, but the Bride should survive.
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#8
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VashtaNerada88
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@samjackson:
1- inch punch through dimension lumber & punching her way out a coffin with hundreds of lbs. of dirt on top of it.
ridiculous pain tolerance & endurance, She fought through the 88's, Gogo, and O-ren. Gogo/o-ren both landed direct hits on Kiddo and she still beat them.
Knows multiple martial arts, pressure strikes, and sword styles. O, and her Hanzo blade cuts other swords in half.
she should certainly take the solid majority.
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#9
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phoenixdiamond616
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Currently I'd say Sara Lance is capable to give Beatrix a fight by her own... she might as well be able to win
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#10
Posted by
lubub55
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Beatrix.
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#11
Edited by
SkySanji
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Kiddo mid diff.
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#12
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The_Hajduk
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Kill Bill Pt 2 is literally one of my favorite entertainment things ever and I'm seeing a lot of love for the Bride, but I'm not seeing any real objective explanations of why she wins. Her big feat according to Comic Vine is beating the entire Crazy 88, but Bill literally said in the next movie that there wasn't really 88 of them and they just had the name because it was 'cool.'
So nobody really knows how many fodder she killed. And her fodder management wasn't really on point, everybody knows that the Crazy 88 just waved swords in the background while the Bride killed two or three of them at a time.
I usually don't resort to these types of arguments, but it's relevant because I think everybody on Comic Vine hangs onto that feat for the Bride. The Arrowverse has plenty high level fodder feats. Green Arrow peaked when he fought "an endless wave" of Special Forces early in S4, mostly off-screen, with the plan being that he was supposed to just hold everyone off until the team could accomplish their mission inside. He did this right after training under and barely defeating Ra's.
Ra's has what I consider a top level fodder feat, but at only eight.
On paper, their ninja.
In feats, they've got plenty.
As far as choreography, I like this feat because for the most part, these ninja are actually crowd managed by Ra's really well and they try to act as a team and all jump in. They fight as coordinated as they can, but Ra's genuinely outskills the team. I think he only had a dagger when he started.
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#13
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the_red_viper
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@the_hajduk:
Bill did say that there weren't really 88 of them but he didn't say if they were fewer or more than 88. Either way, it's a few good dozens and a lot more than 8, lol. And while the choreography was indeed pretty ridiculous, it's mostly a nod to old-school kung-fu movies (the entire 2 movies are essentially a nod to old-school kung-fu movies tbh), but I think that the choreography shouldn't hold more water than the fact that Kiddo single-handedly slaughtered several dozen Yakuza ninjas within 6 minutes give or take, AFTER fighting Gogo, taking a direct hit to the ribs from her table-busting meteor-hammer and killing her... while holding back. I'm of the mind that choreography should hold no water at all in live-action fight scenes. If you analyze fight scenes from a realistic point of view, 99% of fictional characters are worse than amateurs. There's a video. For example, that analyzes the "Tower of Joy" scene in GoT, made by a guy who's adept at HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) and according to his analysis, every single character there makes rookie mistakes with every second swing even though we as viewers know that they're experts (one of the characters in that scene is even called "The Greatest Swordsman Who Ever Lived"). Choreography is meant to look cool, not to actually tell us of a character's martial skill level. The writer's/director's intent is what counts. In my eyes, determining a live-action fighter's skill according to choreography, is akin to determining a comics fighter's skill according to the artwork.
About Ra's and the dagger, well no, he started with his sword. That weird elongated thing was his ring.
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#14
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ANTHP2000
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Either of them could probably solo.
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#15
Edited by
The_Hajduk
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@the_red_viper said:
@the_hajduk:
Bill did say that there weren't really 88 of them but he didn't say if they were fewer or more than 88. Either way, it's a few good dozens and a lot more than 8, lol. And while the choreography was indeed pretty ridiculous, it's mostly a nod to old-school kung-fu movies (the entire 2 movies are essentially a nod to old-school kung-fu movies tbh), but I think that the choreography shouldn't hold more water than the fact that Kiddo single-handedly slaughtered several dozen Yakuza ninjas within 6 minutes give or take, AFTER fighting Gogo, taking a direct hit to the ribs from her table-busting meteor-hammer and killing her... while holding back. I'm of the mind that choreography should hold no water at all in live-action fight scenes. If you analyze fight scenes from a realistic point of view, 99% of fictional characters are worse than amateurs. There's a video. For example, that analyzes the "Tower of Joy" scene in GoT, made by a guy who's adept at HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) and according to his analysis, every single character there makes rookie mistakes with every second swing even though we as viewers know that they're experts (one of the characters in that scene is even called "The Greatest Swordsman Who Ever Lived"). Choreography is meant to look cool, not to actually tell us of a character's martial skill level. The writer's/director's intent is what counts. In my eyes, determining a live-action fighter's skill according to choreography, is akin to determining a comics fighter's skill according to the artwork.
About Ra's and the dagger, well no, he started with his sword. That weird elongated thing was his ring.
It is quite a feat, there's no doubt about that. Early Arrow has always had scenes of heroes beating a dozen or two dozen men. Later on and in Legends of Tomorrow, we started getting some more high end fodder feats, lots of superhuman fodder. It tops out with Green Arrow's "endless wave of Ghosts" feat (which is apparently how it's described in the script even though nobody gives a number in the show) that I mentioned before, and that feat is enough to prove Kiddo's big feat isn't in a different realm. To some interpretations it might be a better feat (it only hurts that most of it is offscreen)
If we look at it from another perspective now, Ra's al Ghul has all the on paper advantages. He's been killing since he was a kid and has lived between 200-300 years (never outright confirmed, many hints by him and Darhk point to the both of them being somewhere in this range). In that time he's had some of the best training thanks to the League, whose training and efficacy is very well documented across the Arrowverse. We've also never seen him struggle in a fight except once, all he did for a season was curbstomp everybody, including Arrow who had two and a half seasons of feats by then, and Nyssa who was on that same elite level, and then Thea who wasn't that far behind them. Malcolm Merlyn also thought that Ra's would defeat him if they fought. Arrowverse tippy top tiers should be better than the five Deadly Vipers IMO, although the Vipers are better than most fighters in the Arrowverse.
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#16
Posted by
the_red_viper
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@the_hajduk: I'm not big on CW, and I've never watched any Arrow episode more than once (I've also not watched season 6 yet), so I really don't recall feats well enough to say, but I definitely don't remember any feat of one single person beating a dozen, let alone 2 dozen enemies at the same time, while surrounded, and without taking a hit, and without any sneak attacks or long-ranged weapons. If you have any sort of example to some CW street level fighter doing something like that, I'll be glad to see it.
Ra's being super-old is nice I guess, but that can be compared to Pai Mei. He was supposedly around 1,000 years old (Bill mentioned the year 1,003 or something when he told Kiddo the legend of Pai Mei and the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique, the latter proved to be true). While she was never seen to be defeating Mei on screen, we do see them train side by side and they are perfectly equal, moving in complete unison, Kiddo actually appeared to be faster.
The Vipers have very little feats going for them. They can only be gauged by how much of a fight they have Kiddo before losing. The only one who I'd say could match her is probably Vernita Green, whose fight with Kiddo was inconclusive with Kiddo being in her prime (unlike O-Ren who fought a fatigued and injured Kiddo, for example). And of course there's Bill himself.
Anyway, if you can show me feats comparable to the Showdown at the House of Blue Leaves, that'd be cool .
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#1
Edited by
Nanji
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- 2 years, 6 months ago
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vs
&
Pretty sure she defeats them solo, but can she take them both? Everyone has gear pictured. Assume good teamwork.
Callouts:
Arrow:
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#2
Posted by
PeterParkerJr
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Beatrix takes them both.
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#3
Posted by
Pokeysteve
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I want to say Kiddo but something is holding me back even though she has the feats.
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#4
Posted by
VashtaNerada88
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Beatrix
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#5
Posted by
Leo-343
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Beatrix kills them.
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#6
Posted by
SamJackson
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I honestly don't think she can take them both. I'll have to go over some of her feats.
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#7
Posted by
Silverrings
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- 2 years, 6 months ago
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Kiddo really should be able to win this. She's tough, she's used to being outnumbered and she can match, or surpass, them both in skill and ferocity. It'd be a good fight, but the Bride should survive.
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#8
Posted by
VashtaNerada88
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@samjackson:
1- inch punch through dimension lumber & punching her way out a coffin with hundreds of lbs. of dirt on top of it.
ridiculous pain tolerance & endurance, She fought through the 88's, Gogo, and O-ren. Gogo/o-ren both landed direct hits on Kiddo and she still beat them.
Knows multiple martial arts, pressure strikes, and sword styles. O, and her Hanzo blade cuts other swords in half.
she should certainly take the solid majority.
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#9
Posted by
phoenixdiamond616
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Currently I'd say Sara Lance is capable to give Beatrix a fight by her own... she might as well be able to win
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#10
Posted by
lubub55
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Beatrix.
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#11
Edited by
SkySanji
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- 1 month, 1 day ago
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Kiddo mid diff.
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#12
Posted by
The_Hajduk
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Kill Bill Pt 2 is literally one of my favorite entertainment things ever and I'm seeing a lot of love for the Bride, but I'm not seeing any real objective explanations of why she wins. Her big feat according to Comic Vine is beating the entire Crazy 88, but Bill literally said in the next movie that there wasn't really 88 of them and they just had the name because it was 'cool.'
So nobody really knows how many fodder she killed. And her fodder management wasn't really on point, everybody knows that the Crazy 88 just waved swords in the background while the Bride killed two or three of them at a time.
I usually don't resort to these types of arguments, but it's relevant because I think everybody on Comic Vine hangs onto that feat for the Bride. The Arrowverse has plenty high level fodder feats. Green Arrow peaked when he fought "an endless wave" of Special Forces early in S4, mostly off-screen, with the plan being that he was supposed to just hold everyone off until the team could accomplish their mission inside. He did this right after training under and barely defeating Ra's.
Ra's has what I consider a top level fodder feat, but at only eight.
On paper, their ninja.
In feats, they've got plenty.
As far as choreography, I like this feat because for the most part, these ninja are actually crowd managed by Ra's really well and they try to act as a team and all jump in. They fight as coordinated as they can, but Ra's genuinely outskills the team. I think he only had a dagger when he started.
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#13
Edited by
the_red_viper
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- 1 month, 1 day ago
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@the_hajduk:
Bill did say that there weren't really 88 of them but he didn't say if they were fewer or more than 88. Either way, it's a few good dozens and a lot more than 8, lol. And while the choreography was indeed pretty ridiculous, it's mostly a nod to old-school kung-fu movies (the entire 2 movies are essentially a nod to old-school kung-fu movies tbh), but I think that the choreography shouldn't hold more water than the fact that Kiddo single-handedly slaughtered several dozen Yakuza ninjas within 6 minutes give or take, AFTER fighting Gogo, taking a direct hit to the ribs from her table-busting meteor-hammer and killing her... while holding back. I'm of the mind that choreography should hold no water at all in live-action fight scenes. If you analyze fight scenes from a realistic point of view, 99% of fictional characters are worse than amateurs. There's a video. For example, that analyzes the "Tower of Joy" scene in GoT, made by a guy who's adept at HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) and according to his analysis, every single character there makes rookie mistakes with every second swing even though we as viewers know that they're experts (one of the characters in that scene is even called "The Greatest Swordsman Who Ever Lived"). Choreography is meant to look cool, not to actually tell us of a character's martial skill level. The writer's/director's intent is what counts. In my eyes, determining a live-action fighter's skill according to choreography, is akin to determining a comics fighter's skill according to the artwork.
About Ra's and the dagger, well no, he started with his sword. That weird elongated thing was his ring.
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#14
Posted by
ANTHP2000
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Either of them could probably solo.
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#15
Edited by
The_Hajduk
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- 1 month, 12 hours ago
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@the_red_viper said:
@the_hajduk:
Bill did say that there weren't really 88 of them but he didn't say if they were fewer or more than 88. Either way, it's a few good dozens and a lot more than 8, lol. And while the choreography was indeed pretty ridiculous, it's mostly a nod to old-school kung-fu movies (the entire 2 movies are essentially a nod to old-school kung-fu movies tbh), but I think that the choreography shouldn't hold more water than the fact that Kiddo single-handedly slaughtered several dozen Yakuza ninjas within 6 minutes give or take, AFTER fighting Gogo, taking a direct hit to the ribs from her table-busting meteor-hammer and killing her... while holding back. I'm of the mind that choreography should hold no water at all in live-action fight scenes. If you analyze fight scenes from a realistic point of view, 99% of fictional characters are worse than amateurs. There's a video. For example, that analyzes the "Tower of Joy" scene in GoT, made by a guy who's adept at HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) and according to his analysis, every single character there makes rookie mistakes with every second swing even though we as viewers know that they're experts (one of the characters in that scene is even called "The Greatest Swordsman Who Ever Lived"). Choreography is meant to look cool, not to actually tell us of a character's martial skill level. The writer's/director's intent is what counts. In my eyes, determining a live-action fighter's skill according to choreography, is akin to determining a comics fighter's skill according to the artwork.
About Ra's and the dagger, well no, he started with his sword. That weird elongated thing was his ring.
It is quite a feat, there's no doubt about that. Early Arrow has always had scenes of heroes beating a dozen or two dozen men. Later on and in Legends of Tomorrow, we started getting some more high end fodder feats, lots of superhuman fodder. It tops out with Green Arrow's "endless wave of Ghosts" feat (which is apparently how it's described in the script even though nobody gives a number in the show) that I mentioned before, and that feat is enough to prove Kiddo's big feat isn't in a different realm. To some interpretations it might be a better feat (it only hurts that most of it is offscreen)
If we look at it from another perspective now, Ra's al Ghul has all the on paper advantages. He's been killing since he was a kid and has lived between 200-300 years (never outright confirmed, many hints by him and Darhk point to the both of them being somewhere in this range). In that time he's had some of the best training thanks to the League, whose training and efficacy is very well documented across the Arrowverse. We've also never seen him struggle in a fight except once, all he did for a season was curbstomp everybody, including Arrow who had two and a half seasons of feats by then, and Nyssa who was on that same elite level, and then Thea who wasn't that far behind them. Malcolm Merlyn also thought that Ra's would defeat him if they fought. Arrowverse tippy top tiers should be better than the five Deadly Vipers IMO, although the Vipers are better than most fighters in the Arrowverse.
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#16
Posted by
the_red_viper
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@the_hajduk: I'm not big on CW, and I've never watched any Arrow episode more than once (I've also not watched season 6 yet), so I really don't recall feats well enough to say, but I definitely don't remember any feat of one single person beating a dozen, let alone 2 dozen enemies at the same time, while surrounded, and without taking a hit, and without any sneak attacks or long-ranged weapons. If you have any sort of example to some CW street level fighter doing something like that, I'll be glad to see it.
Ra's being super-old is nice I guess, but that can be compared to Pai Mei. He was supposedly around 1,000 years old (Bill mentioned the year 1,003 or something when he told Kiddo the legend of Pai Mei and the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique, the latter proved to be true). While she was never seen to be defeating Mei on screen, we do see them train side by side and they are perfectly equal, moving in complete unison, Kiddo actually appeared to be faster.
The Vipers have very little feats going for them. They can only be gauged by how much of a fight they have Kiddo before losing. The only one who I'd say could match her is probably Vernita Green, whose fight with Kiddo was inconclusive with Kiddo being in her prime (unlike O-Ren who fought a fatigued and injured Kiddo, for example). And of course there's Bill himself.
Anyway, if you can show me feats comparable to the Showdown at the House of Blue Leaves, that'd be cool .
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#1
Edited by
Nanji
(55 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
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vs
&
Pretty sure she defeats them solo, but can she take them both? Everyone has gear pictured. Assume good teamwork.
Callouts:
Arrow:
@funsiized@princearagorn1@rogueshadow@jokerpoker@godzilla44@rbt@pokeysteve@fetts@fallschirmjager@princearagorn1@lukehero@allstarsuperman@deathstroke19@homicidalmaniac@sophia89@captain_batman_ftw@strafe_prower@supremegeneration@nfactor1995@nerdchore@sromero78@the_real_seaman@jdg@kcminato
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#2
Posted by
PeterParkerJr
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Beatrix takes them both.
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#3
Posted by
Pokeysteve
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I want to say Kiddo but something is holding me back even though she has the feats.
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#4
Posted by
VashtaNerada88
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- 2 years, 6 months ago
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Beatrix
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#5
Posted by
Leo-343
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- 2 years, 6 months ago
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Beatrix kills them.
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#6
Posted by
SamJackson
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I honestly don't think she can take them both. I'll have to go over some of her feats.
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#7
Posted by
Silverrings
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- 2 years, 6 months ago
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Kiddo really should be able to win this. She's tough, she's used to being outnumbered and she can match, or surpass, them both in skill and ferocity. It'd be a good fight, but the Bride should survive.
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#8
Posted by
VashtaNerada88
(3498 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
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@samjackson:
1- inch punch through dimension lumber & punching her way out a coffin with hundreds of lbs. of dirt on top of it.
ridiculous pain tolerance & endurance, She fought through the 88's, Gogo, and O-ren. Gogo/o-ren both landed direct hits on Kiddo and she still beat them.
Knows multiple martial arts, pressure strikes, and sword styles. O, and her Hanzo blade cuts other swords in half.
she should certainly take the solid majority.
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#9
Posted by
phoenixdiamond616
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Currently I'd say Sara Lance is capable to give Beatrix a fight by her own... she might as well be able to win
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#10
Posted by
lubub55
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- 1 month, 1 day ago
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Beatrix.
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#11
Edited by
SkySanji
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- 1 month, 1 day ago
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Kiddo mid diff.
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#12
Posted by
The_Hajduk
(4211 posts)
- 1 month, 1 day ago
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Kill Bill Pt 2 is literally one of my favorite entertainment things ever and I'm seeing a lot of love for the Bride, but I'm not seeing any real objective explanations of why she wins. Her big feat according to Comic Vine is beating the entire Crazy 88, but Bill literally said in the next movie that there wasn't really 88 of them and they just had the name because it was 'cool.'
So nobody really knows how many fodder she killed. And her fodder management wasn't really on point, everybody knows that the Crazy 88 just waved swords in the background while the Bride killed two or three of them at a time.
I usually don't resort to these types of arguments, but it's relevant because I think everybody on Comic Vine hangs onto that feat for the Bride. The Arrowverse has plenty high level fodder feats. Green Arrow peaked when he fought "an endless wave" of Special Forces early in S4, mostly off-screen, with the plan being that he was supposed to just hold everyone off until the team could accomplish their mission inside. He did this right after training under and barely defeating Ra's.
Ra's has what I consider a top level fodder feat, but at only eight.
On paper, their ninja.
In feats, they've got plenty.
As far as choreography, I like this feat because for the most part, these ninja are actually crowd managed by Ra's really well and they try to act as a team and all jump in. They fight as coordinated as they can, but Ra's genuinely outskills the team. I think he only had a dagger when he started.
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#13
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the_red_viper
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@the_hajduk:
Bill did say that there weren't really 88 of them but he didn't say if they were fewer or more than 88. Either way, it's a few good dozens and a lot more than 8, lol. And while the choreography was indeed pretty ridiculous, it's mostly a nod to old-school kung-fu movies (the entire 2 movies are essentially a nod to old-school kung-fu movies tbh), but I think that the choreography shouldn't hold more water than the fact that Kiddo single-handedly slaughtered several dozen Yakuza ninjas within 6 minutes give or take, AFTER fighting Gogo, taking a direct hit to the ribs from her table-busting meteor-hammer and killing her... while holding back. I'm of the mind that choreography should hold no water at all in live-action fight scenes. If you analyze fight scenes from a realistic point of view, 99% of fictional characters are worse than amateurs. There's a video. For example, that analyzes the "Tower of Joy" scene in GoT, made by a guy who's adept at HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) and according to his analysis, every single character there makes rookie mistakes with every second swing even though we as viewers know that they're experts (one of the characters in that scene is even called "The Greatest Swordsman Who Ever Lived"). Choreography is meant to look cool, not to actually tell us of a character's martial skill level. The writer's/director's intent is what counts. In my eyes, determining a live-action fighter's skill according to choreography, is akin to determining a comics fighter's skill according to the artwork.
About Ra's and the dagger, well no, he started with his sword. That weird elongated thing was his ring.
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#14
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ANTHP2000
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Either of them could probably solo.
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#15
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The_Hajduk
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@the_red_viper said:
@the_hajduk:
Bill did say that there weren't really 88 of them but he didn't say if they were fewer or more than 88. Either way, it's a few good dozens and a lot more than 8, lol. And while the choreography was indeed pretty ridiculous, it's mostly a nod to old-school kung-fu movies (the entire 2 movies are essentially a nod to old-school kung-fu movies tbh), but I think that the choreography shouldn't hold more water than the fact that Kiddo single-handedly slaughtered several dozen Yakuza ninjas within 6 minutes give or take, AFTER fighting Gogo, taking a direct hit to the ribs from her table-busting meteor-hammer and killing her... while holding back. I'm of the mind that choreography should hold no water at all in live-action fight scenes. If you analyze fight scenes from a realistic point of view, 99% of fictional characters are worse than amateurs. There's a video. For example, that analyzes the "Tower of Joy" scene in GoT, made by a guy who's adept at HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) and according to his analysis, every single character there makes rookie mistakes with every second swing even though we as viewers know that they're experts (one of the characters in that scene is even called "The Greatest Swordsman Who Ever Lived"). Choreography is meant to look cool, not to actually tell us of a character's martial skill level. The writer's/director's intent is what counts. In my eyes, determining a live-action fighter's skill according to choreography, is akin to determining a comics fighter's skill according to the artwork.
About Ra's and the dagger, well no, he started with his sword. That weird elongated thing was his ring.
It is quite a feat, there's no doubt about that. Early Arrow has always had scenes of heroes beating a dozen or two dozen men. Later on and in Legends of Tomorrow, we started getting some more high end fodder feats, lots of superhuman fodder. It tops out with Green Arrow's "endless wave of Ghosts" feat (which is apparently how it's described in the script even though nobody gives a number in the show) that I mentioned before, and that feat is enough to prove Kiddo's big feat isn't in a different realm. To some interpretations it might be a better feat (it only hurts that most of it is offscreen)
If we look at it from another perspective now, Ra's al Ghul has all the on paper advantages. He's been killing since he was a kid and has lived between 200-300 years (never outright confirmed, many hints by him and Darhk point to the both of them being somewhere in this range). In that time he's had some of the best training thanks to the League, whose training and efficacy is very well documented across the Arrowverse. We've also never seen him struggle in a fight except once, all he did for a season was curbstomp everybody, including Arrow who had two and a half seasons of feats by then, and Nyssa who was on that same elite level, and then Thea who wasn't that far behind them. Malcolm Merlyn also thought that Ra's would defeat him if they fought. Arrowverse tippy top tiers should be better than the five Deadly Vipers IMO, although the Vipers are better than most fighters in the Arrowverse.
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#16
Posted by
the_red_viper
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- 1 month, 11 hours ago
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@the_hajduk: I'm not big on CW, and I've never watched any Arrow episode more than once (I've also not watched season 6 yet), so I really don't recall feats well enough to say, but I definitely don't remember any feat of one single person beating a dozen, let alone 2 dozen enemies at the same time, while surrounded, and without taking a hit, and without any sneak attacks or long-ranged weapons. If you have any sort of example to some CW street level fighter doing something like that, I'll be glad to see it.
Ra's being super-old is nice I guess, but that can be compared to Pai Mei. He was supposedly around 1,000 years old (Bill mentioned the year 1,003 or something when he told Kiddo the legend of Pai Mei and the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique, the latter proved to be true). While she was never seen to be defeating Mei on screen, we do see them train side by side and they are perfectly equal, moving in complete unison, Kiddo actually appeared to be faster.
The Vipers have very little feats going for them. They can only be gauged by how much of a fight they have Kiddo before losing. The only one who I'd say could match her is probably Vernita Green, whose fight with Kiddo was inconclusive with Kiddo being in her prime (unlike O-Ren who fought a fatigued and injured Kiddo, for example). And of course there's Bill himself.
Anyway, if you can show me feats comparable to the Showdown at the House of Blue Leaves, that'd be cool .
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#1
Edited by
Nanji
(55 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
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vs
&
Pretty sure she defeats them solo, but can she take them both? Everyone has gear pictured. Assume good teamwork.
Callouts:
Arrow:
@funsiized@princearagorn1@rogueshadow@jokerpoker@godzilla44@rbt@pokeysteve@fetts@fallschirmjager@princearagorn1@lukehero@allstarsuperman@deathstroke19@homicidalmaniac@sophia89@captain_batman_ftw@strafe_prower@supremegeneration@nfactor1995@nerdchore@sromero78@the_real_seaman@jdg@kcminato
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#1
Edited by
Nanji
(55 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
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vs
&
Pretty sure she defeats them solo, but can she take them both? Everyone has gear pictured. Assume good teamwork.
Callouts:
Arrow:
@funsiized@princearagorn1@rogueshadow@jokerpoker@godzilla44@rbt@pokeysteve@fetts@fallschirmjager@princearagorn1@lukehero@allstarsuperman@deathstroke19@homicidalmaniac@sophia89@captain_batman_ftw@strafe_prower@supremegeneration@nfactor1995@nerdchore@sromero78@the_real_seaman@jdg@kcminato
#1
Edited by
Nanji
(55 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
- Show Bio
vs
&
Pretty sure she defeats them solo, but can she take them both? Everyone has gear pictured. Assume good teamwork.
Callouts:
Arrow:
@funsiized@princearagorn1@rogueshadow@jokerpoker@godzilla44@rbt@pokeysteve@fetts@fallschirmjager@princearagorn1@lukehero@allstarsuperman@deathstroke19@homicidalmaniac@sophia89@captain_batman_ftw@strafe_prower@supremegeneration@nfactor1995@nerdchore@sromero78@the_real_seaman@jdg@kcminato
#1
Edited by
Nanji
(55 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
- Show Bio
vs
&
Pretty sure she defeats them solo, but can she take them both? Everyone has gear pictured. Assume good teamwork.
Callouts:
Arrow:
@funsiized@princearagorn1@rogueshadow@jokerpoker@godzilla44@rbt@pokeysteve@fetts@fallschirmjager@princearagorn1@lukehero@allstarsuperman@deathstroke19@homicidalmaniac@sophia89@captain_batman_ftw@strafe_prower@supremegeneration@nfactor1995@nerdchore@sromero78@the_real_seaman@jdg@kcminato
Arrow:
@funsiized@princearagorn1@rogueshadow@jokerpoker@godzilla44@rbt@pokeysteve@fetts@fallschirmjager@princearagorn1@lukehero@allstarsuperman@deathstroke19@homicidalmaniac@sophia89@captain_batman_ftw@strafe_prower@supremegeneration@nfactor1995@nerdchore@sromero78@the_real_seaman@jdg@kcminato
Arrow:
@funsiized@princearagorn1@rogueshadow@jokerpoker@godzilla44@rbt@pokeysteve@fetts@fallschirmjager@princearagorn1@lukehero@allstarsuperman@deathstroke19@homicidalmaniac@sophia89@captain_batman_ftw@strafe_prower@supremegeneration@nfactor1995@nerdchore@sromero78@the_real_seaman@jdg@kcminato
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#2
Posted by
PeterParkerJr
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Beatrix takes them both.
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#2
Posted by
PeterParkerJr
(6767 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
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Beatrix takes them both.
#2
Posted by
PeterParkerJr
(6767 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
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Beatrix takes them both.
#2
Posted by
PeterParkerJr
(6767 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
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Beatrix takes them both.
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#3
Posted by
Pokeysteve
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I want to say Kiddo but something is holding me back even though she has the feats.
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#3
Posted by
Pokeysteve
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- 2 years, 6 months ago
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I want to say Kiddo but something is holding me back even though she has the feats.
#3
Posted by
Pokeysteve
(11973 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
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I want to say Kiddo but something is holding me back even though she has the feats.
#3
Posted by
Pokeysteve
(11973 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
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I want to say Kiddo but something is holding me back even though she has the feats.
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#4
Posted by
VashtaNerada88
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Beatrix
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#4
Posted by
VashtaNerada88
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- 2 years, 6 months ago
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Beatrix
#4
Posted by
VashtaNerada88
(3498 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
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Beatrix
#4
Posted by
VashtaNerada88
(3498 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
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Beatrix
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#5
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Leo-343
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Beatrix kills them.
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#5
Posted by
Leo-343
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- 2 years, 6 months ago
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Beatrix kills them.
#5
Posted by
Leo-343
(30909 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
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Beatrix kills them.
#5
Posted by
Leo-343
(30909 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
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Beatrix kills them.
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#6
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SamJackson
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- 2 years, 6 months ago
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I honestly don't think she can take them both. I'll have to go over some of her feats.
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#6
Posted by
SamJackson
(2191 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
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I honestly don't think she can take them both. I'll have to go over some of her feats.
#6
Posted by
SamJackson
(2191 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
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I honestly don't think she can take them both. I'll have to go over some of her feats.
#6
Posted by
SamJackson
(2191 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
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I honestly don't think she can take them both. I'll have to go over some of her feats.
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#7
Posted by
Silverrings
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- 2 years, 6 months ago
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Kiddo really should be able to win this. She's tough, she's used to being outnumbered and she can match, or surpass, them both in skill and ferocity. It'd be a good fight, but the Bride should survive.
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#7
Posted by
Silverrings
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- 2 years, 6 months ago
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Kiddo really should be able to win this. She's tough, she's used to being outnumbered and she can match, or surpass, them both in skill and ferocity. It'd be a good fight, but the Bride should survive.
#7
Posted by
Silverrings
(5452 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
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Kiddo really should be able to win this. She's tough, she's used to being outnumbered and she can match, or surpass, them both in skill and ferocity. It'd be a good fight, but the Bride should survive.
#7
Posted by
Silverrings
(5452 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
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Kiddo really should be able to win this. She's tough, she's used to being outnumbered and she can match, or surpass, them both in skill and ferocity. It'd be a good fight, but the Bride should survive.
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#8
Posted by
VashtaNerada88
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- 2 years, 6 months ago
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@samjackson:
1- inch punch through dimension lumber & punching her way out a coffin with hundreds of lbs. of dirt on top of it.
ridiculous pain tolerance & endurance, She fought through the 88's, Gogo, and O-ren. Gogo/o-ren both landed direct hits on Kiddo and she still beat them.
Knows multiple martial arts, pressure strikes, and sword styles. O, and her Hanzo blade cuts other swords in half.
she should certainly take the solid majority.
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#8
Posted by
VashtaNerada88
(3498 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
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@samjackson:
1- inch punch through dimension lumber & punching her way out a coffin with hundreds of lbs. of dirt on top of it.
ridiculous pain tolerance & endurance, She fought through the 88's, Gogo, and O-ren. Gogo/o-ren both landed direct hits on Kiddo and she still beat them.
Knows multiple martial arts, pressure strikes, and sword styles. O, and her Hanzo blade cuts other swords in half.
she should certainly take the solid majority.
#8
Posted by
VashtaNerada88
(3498 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
- Show Bio
@samjackson:
1- inch punch through dimension lumber & punching her way out a coffin with hundreds of lbs. of dirt on top of it.
ridiculous pain tolerance & endurance, She fought through the 88's, Gogo, and O-ren. Gogo/o-ren both landed direct hits on Kiddo and she still beat them.
Knows multiple martial arts, pressure strikes, and sword styles. O, and her Hanzo blade cuts other swords in half.
she should certainly take the solid majority.
#8
Posted by
VashtaNerada88
(3498 posts)
- 2 years, 6 months ago
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@samjackson:
1- inch punch through dimension lumber & punching her way out a coffin with hundreds of lbs. of dirt on top of it.
ridiculous pain tolerance & endurance, She fought through the 88's, Gogo, and O-ren. Gogo/o-ren both landed direct hits on Kiddo and she still beat them.
Knows multiple martial arts, pressure strikes, and sword styles. O, and her Hanzo blade cuts other swords in half.
she should certainly take the solid majority.
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#9
Posted by
phoenixdiamond616
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- 1 month, 2 days ago
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Currently I'd say Sara Lance is capable to give Beatrix a fight by her own... she might as well be able to win
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#9
Posted by
phoenixdiamond616
(1363 posts)
- 1 month, 2 days ago
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Currently I'd say Sara Lance is capable to give Beatrix a fight by her own... she might as well be able to win
#9
Posted by
phoenixdiamond616
(1363 posts)
- 1 month, 2 days ago
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Currently I'd say Sara Lance is capable to give Beatrix a fight by her own... she might as well be able to win
#9
Posted by
phoenixdiamond616
(1363 posts)
- 1 month, 2 days ago
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Currently I'd say Sara Lance is capable to give Beatrix a fight by her own... she might as well be able to win
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#10
Posted by
lubub55
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- 1 month, 1 day ago
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Beatrix.
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#10
Posted by
lubub55
(12734 posts)
- 1 month, 1 day ago
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Beatrix.
#10
Posted by
lubub55
(12734 posts)
- 1 month, 1 day ago
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Beatrix.
#10
Posted by
lubub55
(12734 posts)
- 1 month, 1 day ago
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Beatrix.
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#11
Edited by
SkySanji
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- 1 month, 1 day ago
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Kiddo mid diff.
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#11
Edited by
SkySanji
(606 posts)
- 1 month, 1 day ago
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Kiddo mid diff.
#11
Edited by
SkySanji
(606 posts)
- 1 month, 1 day ago
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Kiddo mid diff.
#11
Edited by
SkySanji
(606 posts)
- 1 month, 1 day ago
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Kiddo mid diff.
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#12
Posted by
The_Hajduk
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- 1 month, 1 day ago
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Kill Bill Pt 2 is literally one of my favorite entertainment things ever and I'm seeing a lot of love for the Bride, but I'm not seeing any real objective explanations of why she wins. Her big feat according to Comic Vine is beating the entire Crazy 88, but Bill literally said in the next movie that there wasn't really 88 of them and they just had the name because it was 'cool.'
So nobody really knows how many fodder she killed. And her fodder management wasn't really on point, everybody knows that the Crazy 88 just waved swords in the background while the Bride killed two or three of them at a time.
I usually don't resort to these types of arguments, but it's relevant because I think everybody on Comic Vine hangs onto that feat for the Bride. The Arrowverse has plenty high level fodder feats. Green Arrow peaked when he fought "an endless wave" of Special Forces early in S4, mostly off-screen, with the plan being that he was supposed to just hold everyone off until the team could accomplish their mission inside. He did this right after training under and barely defeating Ra's.
Ra's has what I consider a top level fodder feat, but at only eight.
On paper, their ninja.
In feats, they've got plenty.
As far as choreography, I like this feat because for the most part, these ninja are actually crowd managed by Ra's really well and they try to act as a team and all jump in. They fight as coordinated as they can, but Ra's genuinely outskills the team. I think he only had a dagger when he started.
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#12
Posted by
The_Hajduk
(4211 posts)
- 1 month, 1 day ago
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Kill Bill Pt 2 is literally one of my favorite entertainment things ever and I'm seeing a lot of love for the Bride, but I'm not seeing any real objective explanations of why she wins. Her big feat according to Comic Vine is beating the entire Crazy 88, but Bill literally said in the next movie that there wasn't really 88 of them and they just had the name because it was 'cool.'
So nobody really knows how many fodder she killed. And her fodder management wasn't really on point, everybody knows that the Crazy 88 just waved swords in the background while the Bride killed two or three of them at a time.
I usually don't resort to these types of arguments, but it's relevant because I think everybody on Comic Vine hangs onto that feat for the Bride. The Arrowverse has plenty high level fodder feats. Green Arrow peaked when he fought "an endless wave" of Special Forces early in S4, mostly off-screen, with the plan being that he was supposed to just hold everyone off until the team could accomplish their mission inside. He did this right after training under and barely defeating Ra's.
Ra's has what I consider a top level fodder feat, but at only eight.
On paper, their ninja.
In feats, they've got plenty.
As far as choreography, I like this feat because for the most part, these ninja are actually crowd managed by Ra's really well and they try to act as a team and all jump in. They fight as coordinated as they can, but Ra's genuinely outskills the team. I think he only had a dagger when he started.
#12
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The_Hajduk
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Kill Bill Pt 2 is literally one of my favorite entertainment things ever and I'm seeing a lot of love for the Bride, but I'm not seeing any real objective explanations of why she wins. Her big feat according to Comic Vine is beating the entire Crazy 88, but Bill literally said in the next movie that there wasn't really 88 of them and they just had the name because it was 'cool.'
So nobody really knows how many fodder she killed. And her fodder management wasn't really on point, everybody knows that the Crazy 88 just waved swords in the background while the Bride killed two or three of them at a time.
I usually don't resort to these types of arguments, but it's relevant because I think everybody on Comic Vine hangs onto that feat for the Bride. The Arrowverse has plenty high level fodder feats. Green Arrow peaked when he fought "an endless wave" of Special Forces early in S4, mostly off-screen, with the plan being that he was supposed to just hold everyone off until the team could accomplish their mission inside. He did this right after training under and barely defeating Ra's.
Ra's has what I consider a top level fodder feat, but at only eight.
On paper, their ninja.
In feats, they've got plenty.
As far as choreography, I like this feat because for the most part, these ninja are actually crowd managed by Ra's really well and they try to act as a team and all jump in. They fight as coordinated as they can, but Ra's genuinely outskills the team. I think he only had a dagger when he started.
#12
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The_Hajduk
(4211 posts)
- 1 month, 1 day ago
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Kill Bill Pt 2 is literally one of my favorite entertainment things ever and I'm seeing a lot of love for the Bride, but I'm not seeing any real objective explanations of why she wins. Her big feat according to Comic Vine is beating the entire Crazy 88, but Bill literally said in the next movie that there wasn't really 88 of them and they just had the name because it was 'cool.'
So nobody really knows how many fodder she killed. And her fodder management wasn't really on point, everybody knows that the Crazy 88 just waved swords in the background while the Bride killed two or three of them at a time.
I usually don't resort to these types of arguments, but it's relevant because I think everybody on Comic Vine hangs onto that feat for the Bride. The Arrowverse has plenty high level fodder feats. Green Arrow peaked when he fought "an endless wave" of Special Forces early in S4, mostly off-screen, with the plan being that he was supposed to just hold everyone off until the team could accomplish their mission inside. He did this right after training under and barely defeating Ra's.
Ra's has what I consider a top level fodder feat, but at only eight.
On paper, their ninja.
In feats, they've got plenty.
As far as choreography, I like this feat because for the most part, these ninja are actually crowd managed by Ra's really well and they try to act as a team and all jump in. They fight as coordinated as they can, but Ra's genuinely outskills the team. I think he only had a dagger when he started.
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#13
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the_red_viper
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@the_hajduk:
Bill did say that there weren't really 88 of them but he didn't say if they were fewer or more than 88. Either way, it's a few good dozens and a lot more than 8, lol. And while the choreography was indeed pretty ridiculous, it's mostly a nod to old-school kung-fu movies (the entire 2 movies are essentially a nod to old-school kung-fu movies tbh), but I think that the choreography shouldn't hold more water than the fact that Kiddo single-handedly slaughtered several dozen Yakuza ninjas within 6 minutes give or take, AFTER fighting Gogo, taking a direct hit to the ribs from her table-busting meteor-hammer and killing her... while holding back. I'm of the mind that choreography should hold no water at all in live-action fight scenes. If you analyze fight scenes from a realistic point of view, 99% of fictional characters are worse than amateurs. There's a video. For example, that analyzes the "Tower of Joy" scene in GoT, made by a guy who's adept at HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) and according to his analysis, every single character there makes rookie mistakes with every second swing even though we as viewers know that they're experts (one of the characters in that scene is even called "The Greatest Swordsman Who Ever Lived"). Choreography is meant to look cool, not to actually tell us of a character's martial skill level. The writer's/director's intent is what counts. In my eyes, determining a live-action fighter's skill according to choreography, is akin to determining a comics fighter's skill according to the artwork.
About Ra's and the dagger, well no, he started with his sword. That weird elongated thing was his ring.
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#13
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the_red_viper
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@the_hajduk:
Bill did say that there weren't really 88 of them but he didn't say if they were fewer or more than 88. Either way, it's a few good dozens and a lot more than 8, lol. And while the choreography was indeed pretty ridiculous, it's mostly a nod to old-school kung-fu movies (the entire 2 movies are essentially a nod to old-school kung-fu movies tbh), but I think that the choreography shouldn't hold more water than the fact that Kiddo single-handedly slaughtered several dozen Yakuza ninjas within 6 minutes give or take, AFTER fighting Gogo, taking a direct hit to the ribs from her table-busting meteor-hammer and killing her... while holding back. I'm of the mind that choreography should hold no water at all in live-action fight scenes. If you analyze fight scenes from a realistic point of view, 99% of fictional characters are worse than amateurs. There's a video. For example, that analyzes the "Tower of Joy" scene in GoT, made by a guy who's adept at HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) and according to his analysis, every single character there makes rookie mistakes with every second swing even though we as viewers know that they're experts (one of the characters in that scene is even called "The Greatest Swordsman Who Ever Lived"). Choreography is meant to look cool, not to actually tell us of a character's martial skill level. The writer's/director's intent is what counts. In my eyes, determining a live-action fighter's skill according to choreography, is akin to determining a comics fighter's skill according to the artwork.
About Ra's and the dagger, well no, he started with his sword. That weird elongated thing was his ring.
#13
Edited by
the_red_viper
(12499 posts)
- 1 month, 1 day ago
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@the_hajduk:
Bill did say that there weren't really 88 of them but he didn't say if they were fewer or more than 88. Either way, it's a few good dozens and a lot more than 8, lol. And while the choreography was indeed pretty ridiculous, it's mostly a nod to old-school kung-fu movies (the entire 2 movies are essentially a nod to old-school kung-fu movies tbh), but I think that the choreography shouldn't hold more water than the fact that Kiddo single-handedly slaughtered several dozen Yakuza ninjas within 6 minutes give or take, AFTER fighting Gogo, taking a direct hit to the ribs from her table-busting meteor-hammer and killing her... while holding back. I'm of the mind that choreography should hold no water at all in live-action fight scenes. If you analyze fight scenes from a realistic point of view, 99% of fictional characters are worse than amateurs. There's a video. For example, that analyzes the "Tower of Joy" scene in GoT, made by a guy who's adept at HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) and according to his analysis, every single character there makes rookie mistakes with every second swing even though we as viewers know that they're experts (one of the characters in that scene is even called "The Greatest Swordsman Who Ever Lived"). Choreography is meant to look cool, not to actually tell us of a character's martial skill level. The writer's/director's intent is what counts. In my eyes, determining a live-action fighter's skill according to choreography, is akin to determining a comics fighter's skill according to the artwork.
About Ra's and the dagger, well no, he started with his sword. That weird elongated thing was his ring.
#13
Edited by
the_red_viper
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- 1 month, 1 day ago
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@the_hajduk:
Bill did say that there weren't really 88 of them but he didn't say if they were fewer or more than 88. Either way, it's a few good dozens and a lot more than 8, lol. And while the choreography was indeed pretty ridiculous, it's mostly a nod to old-school kung-fu movies (the entire 2 movies are essentially a nod to old-school kung-fu movies tbh), but I think that the choreography shouldn't hold more water than the fact that Kiddo single-handedly slaughtered several dozen Yakuza ninjas within 6 minutes give or take, AFTER fighting Gogo, taking a direct hit to the ribs from her table-busting meteor-hammer and killing her... while holding back. I'm of the mind that choreography should hold no water at all in live-action fight scenes. If you analyze fight scenes from a realistic point of view, 99% of fictional characters are worse than amateurs. There's a video. For example, that analyzes the "Tower of Joy" scene in GoT, made by a guy who's adept at HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) and according to his analysis, every single character there makes rookie mistakes with every second swing even though we as viewers know that they're experts (one of the characters in that scene is even called "The Greatest Swordsman Who Ever Lived"). Choreography is meant to look cool, not to actually tell us of a character's martial skill level. The writer's/director's intent is what counts. In my eyes, determining a live-action fighter's skill according to choreography, is akin to determining a comics fighter's skill according to the artwork.
About Ra's and the dagger, well no, he started with his sword. That weird elongated thing was his ring.
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#14
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ANTHP2000
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Either of them could probably solo.
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#14
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ANTHP2000
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Either of them could probably solo.
#14
Posted by
ANTHP2000
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Either of them could probably solo.
#14
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ANTHP2000
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Either of them could probably solo.
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#15
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The_Hajduk
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@the_red_viper said:
@the_hajduk:
Bill did say that there weren't really 88 of them but he didn't say if they were fewer or more than 88. Either way, it's a few good dozens and a lot more than 8, lol. And while the choreography was indeed pretty ridiculous, it's mostly a nod to old-school kung-fu movies (the entire 2 movies are essentially a nod to old-school kung-fu movies tbh), but I think that the choreography shouldn't hold more water than the fact that Kiddo single-handedly slaughtered several dozen Yakuza ninjas within 6 minutes give or take, AFTER fighting Gogo, taking a direct hit to the ribs from her table-busting meteor-hammer and killing her... while holding back. I'm of the mind that choreography should hold no water at all in live-action fight scenes. If you analyze fight scenes from a realistic point of view, 99% of fictional characters are worse than amateurs. There's a video. For example, that analyzes the "Tower of Joy" scene in GoT, made by a guy who's adept at HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) and according to his analysis, every single character there makes rookie mistakes with every second swing even though we as viewers know that they're experts (one of the characters in that scene is even called "The Greatest Swordsman Who Ever Lived"). Choreography is meant to look cool, not to actually tell us of a character's martial skill level. The writer's/director's intent is what counts. In my eyes, determining a live-action fighter's skill according to choreography, is akin to determining a comics fighter's skill according to the artwork.
About Ra's and the dagger, well no, he started with his sword. That weird elongated thing was his ring.
It is quite a feat, there's no doubt about that. Early Arrow has always had scenes of heroes beating a dozen or two dozen men. Later on and in Legends of Tomorrow, we started getting some more high end fodder feats, lots of superhuman fodder. It tops out with Green Arrow's "endless wave of Ghosts" feat (which is apparently how it's described in the script even though nobody gives a number in the show) that I mentioned before, and that feat is enough to prove Kiddo's big feat isn't in a different realm. To some interpretations it might be a better feat (it only hurts that most of it is offscreen)
If we look at it from another perspective now, Ra's al Ghul has all the on paper advantages. He's been killing since he was a kid and has lived between 200-300 years (never outright confirmed, many hints by him and Darhk point to the both of them being somewhere in this range). In that time he's had some of the best training thanks to the League, whose training and efficacy is very well documented across the Arrowverse. We've also never seen him struggle in a fight except once, all he did for a season was curbstomp everybody, including Arrow who had two and a half seasons of feats by then, and Nyssa who was on that same elite level, and then Thea who wasn't that far behind them. Malcolm Merlyn also thought that Ra's would defeat him if they fought. Arrowverse tippy top tiers should be better than the five Deadly Vipers IMO, although the Vipers are better than most fighters in the Arrowverse.
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#15
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The_Hajduk
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@the_red_viper said:
@the_hajduk:
Bill did say that there weren't really 88 of them but he didn't say if they were fewer or more than 88. Either way, it's a few good dozens and a lot more than 8, lol. And while the choreography was indeed pretty ridiculous, it's mostly a nod to old-school kung-fu movies (the entire 2 movies are essentially a nod to old-school kung-fu movies tbh), but I think that the choreography shouldn't hold more water than the fact that Kiddo single-handedly slaughtered several dozen Yakuza ninjas within 6 minutes give or take, AFTER fighting Gogo, taking a direct hit to the ribs from her table-busting meteor-hammer and killing her... while holding back. I'm of the mind that choreography should hold no water at all in live-action fight scenes. If you analyze fight scenes from a realistic point of view, 99% of fictional characters are worse than amateurs. There's a video. For example, that analyzes the "Tower of Joy" scene in GoT, made by a guy who's adept at HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) and according to his analysis, every single character there makes rookie mistakes with every second swing even though we as viewers know that they're experts (one of the characters in that scene is even called "The Greatest Swordsman Who Ever Lived"). Choreography is meant to look cool, not to actually tell us of a character's martial skill level. The writer's/director's intent is what counts. In my eyes, determining a live-action fighter's skill according to choreography, is akin to determining a comics fighter's skill according to the artwork.
About Ra's and the dagger, well no, he started with his sword. That weird elongated thing was his ring.
It is quite a feat, there's no doubt about that. Early Arrow has always had scenes of heroes beating a dozen or two dozen men. Later on and in Legends of Tomorrow, we started getting some more high end fodder feats, lots of superhuman fodder. It tops out with Green Arrow's "endless wave of Ghosts" feat (which is apparently how it's described in the script even though nobody gives a number in the show) that I mentioned before, and that feat is enough to prove Kiddo's big feat isn't in a different realm. To some interpretations it might be a better feat (it only hurts that most of it is offscreen)
If we look at it from another perspective now, Ra's al Ghul has all the on paper advantages. He's been killing since he was a kid and has lived between 200-300 years (never outright confirmed, many hints by him and Darhk point to the both of them being somewhere in this range). In that time he's had some of the best training thanks to the League, whose training and efficacy is very well documented across the Arrowverse. We've also never seen him struggle in a fight except once, all he did for a season was curbstomp everybody, including Arrow who had two and a half seasons of feats by then, and Nyssa who was on that same elite level, and then Thea who wasn't that far behind them. Malcolm Merlyn also thought that Ra's would defeat him if they fought. Arrowverse tippy top tiers should be better than the five Deadly Vipers IMO, although the Vipers are better than most fighters in the Arrowverse.
#15
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The_Hajduk
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@the_red_viper said:
@the_hajduk:
Bill did say that there weren't really 88 of them but he didn't say if they were fewer or more than 88. Either way, it's a few good dozens and a lot more than 8, lol. And while the choreography was indeed pretty ridiculous, it's mostly a nod to old-school kung-fu movies (the entire 2 movies are essentially a nod to old-school kung-fu movies tbh), but I think that the choreography shouldn't hold more water than the fact that Kiddo single-handedly slaughtered several dozen Yakuza ninjas within 6 minutes give or take, AFTER fighting Gogo, taking a direct hit to the ribs from her table-busting meteor-hammer and killing her... while holding back. I'm of the mind that choreography should hold no water at all in live-action fight scenes. If you analyze fight scenes from a realistic point of view, 99% of fictional characters are worse than amateurs. There's a video. For example, that analyzes the "Tower of Joy" scene in GoT, made by a guy who's adept at HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) and according to his analysis, every single character there makes rookie mistakes with every second swing even though we as viewers know that they're experts (one of the characters in that scene is even called "The Greatest Swordsman Who Ever Lived"). Choreography is meant to look cool, not to actually tell us of a character's martial skill level. The writer's/director's intent is what counts. In my eyes, determining a live-action fighter's skill according to choreography, is akin to determining a comics fighter's skill according to the artwork.
About Ra's and the dagger, well no, he started with his sword. That weird elongated thing was his ring.
It is quite a feat, there's no doubt about that. Early Arrow has always had scenes of heroes beating a dozen or two dozen men. Later on and in Legends of Tomorrow, we started getting some more high end fodder feats, lots of superhuman fodder. It tops out with Green Arrow's "endless wave of Ghosts" feat (which is apparently how it's described in the script even though nobody gives a number in the show) that I mentioned before, and that feat is enough to prove Kiddo's big feat isn't in a different realm. To some interpretations it might be a better feat (it only hurts that most of it is offscreen)
If we look at it from another perspective now, Ra's al Ghul has all the on paper advantages. He's been killing since he was a kid and has lived between 200-300 years (never outright confirmed, many hints by him and Darhk point to the both of them being somewhere in this range). In that time he's had some of the best training thanks to the League, whose training and efficacy is very well documented across the Arrowverse. We've also never seen him struggle in a fight except once, all he did for a season was curbstomp everybody, including Arrow who had two and a half seasons of feats by then, and Nyssa who was on that same elite level, and then Thea who wasn't that far behind them. Malcolm Merlyn also thought that Ra's would defeat him if they fought. Arrowverse tippy top tiers should be better than the five Deadly Vipers IMO, although the Vipers are better than most fighters in the Arrowverse.
#15
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The_Hajduk
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@the_red_viper said:
@the_hajduk:
Bill did say that there weren't really 88 of them but he didn't say if they were fewer or more than 88. Either way, it's a few good dozens and a lot more than 8, lol. And while the choreography was indeed pretty ridiculous, it's mostly a nod to old-school kung-fu movies (the entire 2 movies are essentially a nod to old-school kung-fu movies tbh), but I think that the choreography shouldn't hold more water than the fact that Kiddo single-handedly slaughtered several dozen Yakuza ninjas within 6 minutes give or take, AFTER fighting Gogo, taking a direct hit to the ribs from her table-busting meteor-hammer and killing her... while holding back. I'm of the mind that choreography should hold no water at all in live-action fight scenes. If you analyze fight scenes from a realistic point of view, 99% of fictional characters are worse than amateurs. There's a video. For example, that analyzes the "Tower of Joy" scene in GoT, made by a guy who's adept at HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) and according to his analysis, every single character there makes rookie mistakes with every second swing even though we as viewers know that they're experts (one of the characters in that scene is even called "The Greatest Swordsman Who Ever Lived"). Choreography is meant to look cool, not to actually tell us of a character's martial skill level. The writer's/director's intent is what counts. In my eyes, determining a live-action fighter's skill according to choreography, is akin to determining a comics fighter's skill according to the artwork.
About Ra's and the dagger, well no, he started with his sword. That weird elongated thing was his ring.
It is quite a feat, there's no doubt about that. Early Arrow has always had scenes of heroes beating a dozen or two dozen men. Later on and in Legends of Tomorrow, we started getting some more high end fodder feats, lots of superhuman fodder. It tops out with Green Arrow's "endless wave of Ghosts" feat (which is apparently how it's described in the script even though nobody gives a number in the show) that I mentioned before, and that feat is enough to prove Kiddo's big feat isn't in a different realm. To some interpretations it might be a better feat (it only hurts that most of it is offscreen)
If we look at it from another perspective now, Ra's al Ghul has all the on paper advantages. He's been killing since he was a kid and has lived between 200-300 years (never outright confirmed, many hints by him and Darhk point to the both of them being somewhere in this range). In that time he's had some of the best training thanks to the League, whose training and efficacy is very well documented across the Arrowverse. We've also never seen him struggle in a fight except once, all he did for a season was curbstomp everybody, including Arrow who had two and a half seasons of feats by then, and Nyssa who was on that same elite level, and then Thea who wasn't that far behind them. Malcolm Merlyn also thought that Ra's would defeat him if they fought. Arrowverse tippy top tiers should be better than the five Deadly Vipers IMO, although the Vipers are better than most fighters in the Arrowverse.
@the_red_viper said:
@the_hajduk:
Bill did say that there weren't really 88 of them but he didn't say if they were fewer or more than 88. Either way, it's a few good dozens and a lot more than 8, lol. And while the choreography was indeed pretty ridiculous, it's mostly a nod to old-school kung-fu movies (the entire 2 movies are essentially a nod to old-school kung-fu movies tbh), but I think that the choreography shouldn't hold more water than the fact that Kiddo single-handedly slaughtered several dozen Yakuza ninjas within 6 minutes give or take, AFTER fighting Gogo, taking a direct hit to the ribs from her table-busting meteor-hammer and killing her... while holding back. I'm of the mind that choreography should hold no water at all in live-action fight scenes. If you analyze fight scenes from a realistic point of view, 99% of fictional characters are worse than amateurs. There's a video. For example, that analyzes the "Tower of Joy" scene in GoT, made by a guy who's adept at HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) and according to his analysis, every single character there makes rookie mistakes with every second swing even though we as viewers know that they're experts (one of the characters in that scene is even called "The Greatest Swordsman Who Ever Lived"). Choreography is meant to look cool, not to actually tell us of a character's martial skill level. The writer's/director's intent is what counts. In my eyes, determining a live-action fighter's skill according to choreography, is akin to determining a comics fighter's skill according to the artwork.
About Ra's and the dagger, well no, he started with his sword. That weird elongated thing was his ring.
@the_hajduk:
Bill did say that there weren't really 88 of them but he didn't say if they were fewer or more than 88. Either way, it's a few good dozens and a lot more than 8, lol. And while the choreography was indeed pretty ridiculous, it's mostly a nod to old-school kung-fu movies (the entire 2 movies are essentially a nod to old-school kung-fu movies tbh), but I think that the choreography shouldn't hold more water than the fact that Kiddo single-handedly slaughtered several dozen Yakuza ninjas within 6 minutes give or take, AFTER fighting Gogo, taking a direct hit to the ribs from her table-busting meteor-hammer and killing her... while holding back. I'm of the mind that choreography should hold no water at all in live-action fight scenes. If you analyze fight scenes from a realistic point of view, 99% of fictional characters are worse than amateurs. There's a video. For example, that analyzes the "Tower of Joy" scene in GoT, made by a guy who's adept at HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) and according to his analysis, every single character there makes rookie mistakes with every second swing even though we as viewers know that they're experts (one of the characters in that scene is even called "The Greatest Swordsman Who Ever Lived"). Choreography is meant to look cool, not to actually tell us of a character's martial skill level. The writer's/director's intent is what counts. In my eyes, determining a live-action fighter's skill according to choreography, is akin to determining a comics fighter's skill according to the artwork.
About Ra's and the dagger, well no, he started with his sword. That weird elongated thing was his ring.
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#16
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the_red_viper
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@the_hajduk: I'm not big on CW, and I've never watched any Arrow episode more than once (I've also not watched season 6 yet), so I really don't recall feats well enough to say, but I definitely don't remember any feat of one single person beating a dozen, let alone 2 dozen enemies at the same time, while surrounded, and without taking a hit, and without any sneak attacks or long-ranged weapons. If you have any sort of example to some CW street level fighter doing something like that, I'll be glad to see it.
Ra's being super-old is nice I guess, but that can be compared to Pai Mei. He was supposedly around 1,000 years old (Bill mentioned the year 1,003 or something when he told Kiddo the legend of Pai Mei and the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique, the latter proved to be true). While she was never seen to be defeating Mei on screen, we do see them train side by side and they are perfectly equal, moving in complete unison, Kiddo actually appeared to be faster.
The Vipers have very little feats going for them. They can only be gauged by how much of a fight they have Kiddo before losing. The only one who I'd say could match her is probably Vernita Green, whose fight with Kiddo was inconclusive with Kiddo being in her prime (unlike O-Ren who fought a fatigued and injured Kiddo, for example). And of course there's Bill himself.
Anyway, if you can show me feats comparable to the Showdown at the House of Blue Leaves, that'd be cool .
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#16
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the_red_viper
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@the_hajduk: I'm not big on CW, and I've never watched any Arrow episode more than once (I've also not watched season 6 yet), so I really don't recall feats well enough to say, but I definitely don't remember any feat of one single person beating a dozen, let alone 2 dozen enemies at the same time, while surrounded, and without taking a hit, and without any sneak attacks or long-ranged weapons. If you have any sort of example to some CW street level fighter doing something like that, I'll be glad to see it.
Ra's being super-old is nice I guess, but that can be compared to Pai Mei. He was supposedly around 1,000 years old (Bill mentioned the year 1,003 or something when he told Kiddo the legend of Pai Mei and the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique, the latter proved to be true). While she was never seen to be defeating Mei on screen, we do see them train side by side and they are perfectly equal, moving in complete unison, Kiddo actually appeared to be faster.
The Vipers have very little feats going for them. They can only be gauged by how much of a fight they have Kiddo before losing. The only one who I'd say could match her is probably Vernita Green, whose fight with Kiddo was inconclusive with Kiddo being in her prime (unlike O-Ren who fought a fatigued and injured Kiddo, for example). And of course there's Bill himself.
Anyway, if you can show me feats comparable to the Showdown at the House of Blue Leaves, that'd be cool .
#16
Posted by
the_red_viper
(12499 posts)
- 1 month, 11 hours ago
- Show Bio
@the_hajduk: I'm not big on CW, and I've never watched any Arrow episode more than once (I've also not watched season 6 yet), so I really don't recall feats well enough to say, but I definitely don't remember any feat of one single person beating a dozen, let alone 2 dozen enemies at the same time, while surrounded, and without taking a hit, and without any sneak attacks or long-ranged weapons. If you have any sort of example to some CW street level fighter doing something like that, I'll be glad to see it.
Ra's being super-old is nice I guess, but that can be compared to Pai Mei. He was supposedly around 1,000 years old (Bill mentioned the year 1,003 or something when he told Kiddo the legend of Pai Mei and the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique, the latter proved to be true). While she was never seen to be defeating Mei on screen, we do see them train side by side and they are perfectly equal, moving in complete unison, Kiddo actually appeared to be faster.
The Vipers have very little feats going for them. They can only be gauged by how much of a fight they have Kiddo before losing. The only one who I'd say could match her is probably Vernita Green, whose fight with Kiddo was inconclusive with Kiddo being in her prime (unlike O-Ren who fought a fatigued and injured Kiddo, for example). And of course there's Bill himself.
Anyway, if you can show me feats comparable to the Showdown at the House of Blue Leaves, that'd be cool .
#16
Posted by
the_red_viper
(12499 posts)
- 1 month, 11 hours ago
- Show Bio
@the_hajduk: I'm not big on CW, and I've never watched any Arrow episode more than once (I've also not watched season 6 yet), so I really don't recall feats well enough to say, but I definitely don't remember any feat of one single person beating a dozen, let alone 2 dozen enemies at the same time, while surrounded, and without taking a hit, and without any sneak attacks or long-ranged weapons. If you have any sort of example to some CW street level fighter doing something like that, I'll be glad to see it.
Ra's being super-old is nice I guess, but that can be compared to Pai Mei. He was supposedly around 1,000 years old (Bill mentioned the year 1,003 or something when he told Kiddo the legend of Pai Mei and the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique, the latter proved to be true). While she was never seen to be defeating Mei on screen, we do see them train side by side and they are perfectly equal, moving in complete unison, Kiddo actually appeared to be faster.
The Vipers have very little feats going for them. They can only be gauged by how much of a fight they have Kiddo before losing. The only one who I'd say could match her is probably Vernita Green, whose fight with Kiddo was inconclusive with Kiddo being in her prime (unlike O-Ren who fought a fatigued and injured Kiddo, for example). And of course there's Bill himself.
Anyway, if you can show me feats comparable to the Showdown at the House of Blue Leaves, that'd be cool .
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