• CIS off


• No Prep


• No BFR


• DC team is Pre-New 52


• Both teams are going all out


• Winner by KO or incapacitation


• Fight takes place on New Genesis

Bump

Team 1 due to Orion.

Team 1 due to Orion.

This, also Nefaria is one step above Featless

Callouts:

Nefaria solos.

copy that

@tifalockhart: Nefaria drains his energy quickly during battle against powerful opponents like Thor, Iron Man and Vision. Even when he was written at his most powerful, Nefaria drained more energy than he could recover it. Orion's Astro Force is also more than capable of KOing Nefaria given that it can knock out Superman and cause global tremors from being fired at the moon.

Orion solostomps.

@lvenger: Fair point, but I'm not convinced Orion won't be eating dirt before then.

@tifalockhart: Because of Nefaria's fight with Thor? Blocking Mjolnir is neat but Thor was still in the game after that. I'm not convinced Nefaria's physicals are consistently as impressive as the Superman/Hulk/Thor tier.

Orion stomps, Nefaria at his maximum best (as stated by himself) was throwing a mountain which isn't that impressive in comparison tbh.

@lvenger: because of Busiek's run where the Avengers winning back in the '70's was a "fluke" according to iirc Wasp and Mjolnir bounced off his chest in a flashback panel.

He may have had poor showings later but back when I was reading he took on the Avengers and the Thunderbolts simultaneously.

@stalin-is-steel: Nefaria's powers were weakening when he lifted that mountain.

Also, Nefaria got more powerful after his fight in Iron Man Annual 1999.

In The Avengers Vol. 3 #34 Iron Man said that "he's more powerful than ever!".

@tifalockhart: Ah I knew you were going to bring that up. Tell me, who was the most powerful Avenger or Thunderbolt there? Who actually compared to Orion and Captain Marvel in terms of strength, let alone Hulk and Thor? I know all the characters that Nefaria fought but I want to hear your thoughts on why this is such a good showing.

Team 1.

@lvenger: I'll have to reread the arc. Brb.

@lvenger: alright I'm back. I'm no Marvel expert, but I'd guess Scarlet Witch was the most powerful member he took on. As far as fighting guys on par with Thor, no, he didn't encounter any in that instance, but Iron Man especially under Busiek isn't far behind and She-Hulk, Warbird, and Vision aren't exactly lightweights. He was simultaneously tanking their combined hits, among others. It wasn't just physical might they tossed at him either, he proved resistant to Scarlet Witch's magic, Songbird encasing him in a sound construct stronger than steel, and even Vision solidifying inside him.

I am genuinely baffled as to why he is being treated as a weak link here. If he was a tier below Thor then why didn't Thor solo him? If he was a tier below Thor why would it take three WEEKS of fighting for Iron Man and company to wear him down? And that still doesn't account for the stealth retcon of Mjolnir being no-sold by his chest.

Maybe he doesn't solo and I was wrong about that but he's being dismissed rather unfairly. Thor vs. Orion would be a rough fight yet the majority is acting like Orion would stomp The Count who at least rivals Thor.

@tifalockhart: Scarlet Witch is the obvious choice for damage output but Thor was tanking Scarlet Witch's hex blasts along with her and Havok's blasts combined. She had to BFR him as there was no defeating him in direct conflict according to the narration. So Thor has Nefaria outperformed against Wanda. Iron Man, Vision, She Hulk and Warbird are all mid tiers and they were the only ones that were even remotely a threat to Nefaria before and for comparison, Pre Core Breach Hulk was stated to be more powerful than Iron Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch & Ionic Wonder Man combined.

This is the same Wonder Man who could turn the tide against Nefaria when free from his control yet Hulk is more powerful than him and 3 other mid tiers. Breaking a stronger than steel construct is also child's play to a high tier

Plot and because the writers intended for him to be a match for Thor. However, Thor has gained more feats over the years of his appearance that put him above Nefaria on a consistent basis and Nefaria was losing power rapidly fighting someone as powerful as Thor. Which means fighting Billy or Orion will drain his power at a near, if not equal rate. The stealth retcon flies in the face of their actual fight so it can be dismissed pretty easily.

Because Nefaria only has a few feats that are actually impressive and years worth of jobbing. Thor and Hulk have long since outclassed Nefaria with their feats whereas the Count doesn't have the showings to contend with them. I'll quote from a cancelled Hulk vs Count Nefaria CAV to demonstrate why Nefaria's energy stamina is a significant disadvantage for him.

Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:

They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;

1. Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...


2. Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.

Team 1. Give Thor a better teammate.

Team 2.

@lvenger: Define "tanking." If Thor was no-selling the combined attacks of Scarlet Witch and Havok I'll have to concede the point.

Thor is not Hulk. I also don't recall Wonder Man posing a significant threat to Nefaria in a physical sense either (but my copy of issue #33 is missing so I could be wrong).

We don't know how much stronger than steel the construct was, but even Etrigan had trouble when his arms were pinned by a car wrapped around him. Nefaria was encased with the stuff and broke out with no apparent strain.

Dismissing a feat just because you don't agree with it leads nowhere. If we're going by volume of feats, then Orion has Yuga Khan beat.

Why do you disagree with the three weeks assessment?

Team 1 with Orion as MVP.

Nefaria lacks endurance to be useful past a point in this battle.

@tifalockhart: Well I'll post the scans from Uncanny Avengers #4 so you can see exactly how Thor fared. I think it's pretty hard to deny that what Thor is doing this isn't tanking these energy blasts.

In contrast, a less skilled and experienced Wanda was able to hurt Nefaria with her chaos magic.

That was during their first fight where Wonder Man wasn't a being of pure Ionic energy yet. When Simon was freed from Nefaria's control, he posed a much greater threat than he did back then.

It's still unquantifiable and still irrelevant given that stronger than steel is a vague statement. Destroying secondary adamantium would be a better measurement of strength but breaking something stronger than steel is something mid tiers should be able to do.

That's not what I'm saying though. I'm saying it can be dismissed because it flies in the face of how the fight actually went where Thor was the only Avenger who Nefaria was actually scared of and could consistently harm the Count.

Because to paraphrase the argument from before, Nefaria will be exerting significantly more effort against Orion and Captain Marvel than he would against a group of street levellers and mid tiers. That means he'll be expending energy and getting weaker and weaker whilst the fight progresses. Also, even if the energy drain wasn't a factor, Orion and Marvel outclass him by comparative feats.

@lvenger: In that case I've got no choice but to concede Thor has more durability than Nefaria.

Would it be a stretch to say Orion can one shot Nefaria with the Astro Force then go on the fight Thor considering his speed in the Astro-Harness? Honestly, he's a tier above him and if we look into his Astro Force feats, he can damn near continent bust, not even considering the sheer size of Apokolips and the amount of the planet Orion was destroying. Not to mention how he one shotted Kalibak, Mantis and Superman by flying into them. If Orion can one shot Nefaria before Thor can land a hit....Orion can solo

@tifalockhart: Thanks for the positive discussion though, I appreciated the reasonable counter arguments you put up, I could definitely see where you were coming from regarding Nefaria.

@lvenger: Thanks. Despite adamantly disagreeing with you on a few occasions you definitely know how to debate properly.