Why does Wikipedia list WW2 starting on September 1, 1939 and not July 7, 1937?
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Looking at Wikipedia, dates given are 1 September 1939 – 2 September 1945, which end in the defeat of Japan.
However why is the starting date when Germany invaded Poland and not when the Japanese invaded China in the Sino-Japanese war on July 7, 1937, which then ends on 2 September 1945 (same) date as WW2?
Why is it considered that WW2 started on September 1, 1939 and not July 7, 1937?
world-war-two europe asia sino-japanese-war
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up vote
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Looking at Wikipedia, dates given are 1 September 1939 – 2 September 1945, which end in the defeat of Japan.
However why is the starting date when Germany invaded Poland and not when the Japanese invaded China in the Sino-Japanese war on July 7, 1937, which then ends on 2 September 1945 (same) date as WW2?
Why is it considered that WW2 started on September 1, 1939 and not July 7, 1937?
world-war-two europe asia sino-japanese-war
38
I remember seeing an American textbook in the 1970s which gave the dates of WW2 as 7 December 1941 to 2 September 1945! I guess it's also sometimes a matter of perspective.
– sempaiscuba♦
yesterday
5
Often, these things are explained by discussions on the talk page of an article, in this case the extensive discussions are archived. (I just searched for the word "start" on the talk page, which took me almost immediately to the archive link.)
– T.J. Crowder
yesterday
11
Because there was no reaction for Japan vs China, so it was considered a war between two countries.
– stackzebra
yesterday
13
@jamesqf "Why does Wikipedia...?" is answerable, but the only correct answer, "because that's what the last guy who edited the page thought was right" isn't very satisfying!
– alephzero
yesterday
13
For fun, track the huge debate on this subject conducted on the Wikipedia talk pages over the course of many years. (@alephzero - it's also not 'the last guy who edited the page' but a consensus formed and then enforced by the community)
– DJClayworth
yesterday
|
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up vote
49
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favorite
up vote
49
down vote
favorite
Looking at Wikipedia, dates given are 1 September 1939 – 2 September 1945, which end in the defeat of Japan.
However why is the starting date when Germany invaded Poland and not when the Japanese invaded China in the Sino-Japanese war on July 7, 1937, which then ends on 2 September 1945 (same) date as WW2?
Why is it considered that WW2 started on September 1, 1939 and not July 7, 1937?
world-war-two europe asia sino-japanese-war
Looking at Wikipedia, dates given are 1 September 1939 – 2 September 1945, which end in the defeat of Japan.
However why is the starting date when Germany invaded Poland and not when the Japanese invaded China in the Sino-Japanese war on July 7, 1937, which then ends on 2 September 1945 (same) date as WW2?
Why is it considered that WW2 started on September 1, 1939 and not July 7, 1937?
world-war-two europe asia sino-japanese-war
world-war-two europe asia sino-japanese-war
edited yesterday
Peter Mortensen
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Matas Vaitkevicius
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38
I remember seeing an American textbook in the 1970s which gave the dates of WW2 as 7 December 1941 to 2 September 1945! I guess it's also sometimes a matter of perspective.
– sempaiscuba♦
yesterday
5
Often, these things are explained by discussions on the talk page of an article, in this case the extensive discussions are archived. (I just searched for the word "start" on the talk page, which took me almost immediately to the archive link.)
– T.J. Crowder
yesterday
11
Because there was no reaction for Japan vs China, so it was considered a war between two countries.
– stackzebra
yesterday
13
@jamesqf "Why does Wikipedia...?" is answerable, but the only correct answer, "because that's what the last guy who edited the page thought was right" isn't very satisfying!
– alephzero
yesterday
13
For fun, track the huge debate on this subject conducted on the Wikipedia talk pages over the course of many years. (@alephzero - it's also not 'the last guy who edited the page' but a consensus formed and then enforced by the community)
– DJClayworth
yesterday
|
show 8 more comments
38
I remember seeing an American textbook in the 1970s which gave the dates of WW2 as 7 December 1941 to 2 September 1945! I guess it's also sometimes a matter of perspective.
– sempaiscuba♦
yesterday
5
Often, these things are explained by discussions on the talk page of an article, in this case the extensive discussions are archived. (I just searched for the word "start" on the talk page, which took me almost immediately to the archive link.)
– T.J. Crowder
yesterday
11
Because there was no reaction for Japan vs China, so it was considered a war between two countries.
– stackzebra
yesterday
13
@jamesqf "Why does Wikipedia...?" is answerable, but the only correct answer, "because that's what the last guy who edited the page thought was right" isn't very satisfying!
– alephzero
yesterday
13
For fun, track the huge debate on this subject conducted on the Wikipedia talk pages over the course of many years. (@alephzero - it's also not 'the last guy who edited the page' but a consensus formed and then enforced by the community)
– DJClayworth
yesterday
38
38
I remember seeing an American textbook in the 1970s which gave the dates of WW2 as 7 December 1941 to 2 September 1945! I guess it's also sometimes a matter of perspective.
– sempaiscuba♦
yesterday
I remember seeing an American textbook in the 1970s which gave the dates of WW2 as 7 December 1941 to 2 September 1945! I guess it's also sometimes a matter of perspective.
– sempaiscuba♦
yesterday
5
5
Often, these things are explained by discussions on the talk page of an article, in this case the extensive discussions are archived. (I just searched for the word "start" on the talk page, which took me almost immediately to the archive link.)
– T.J. Crowder
yesterday
Often, these things are explained by discussions on the talk page of an article, in this case the extensive discussions are archived. (I just searched for the word "start" on the talk page, which took me almost immediately to the archive link.)
– T.J. Crowder
yesterday
11
11
Because there was no reaction for Japan vs China, so it was considered a war between two countries.
– stackzebra
yesterday
Because there was no reaction for Japan vs China, so it was considered a war between two countries.
– stackzebra
yesterday
13
13
@jamesqf "Why does Wikipedia...?" is answerable, but the only correct answer, "because that's what the last guy who edited the page thought was right" isn't very satisfying!
– alephzero
yesterday
@jamesqf "Why does Wikipedia...?" is answerable, but the only correct answer, "because that's what the last guy who edited the page thought was right" isn't very satisfying!
– alephzero
yesterday
13
13
For fun, track the huge debate on this subject conducted on the Wikipedia talk pages over the course of many years. (@alephzero - it's also not 'the last guy who edited the page' but a consensus formed and then enforced by the community)
– DJClayworth
yesterday
For fun, track the huge debate on this subject conducted on the Wikipedia talk pages over the course of many years. (@alephzero - it's also not 'the last guy who edited the page' but a consensus formed and then enforced by the community)
– DJClayworth
yesterday
|
show 8 more comments
6 Answers
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Actually, good arguments can be put forward for both dates as the the 'start' of World War 2. In fact a number of other dates have also been suggested for the 'start' of World War 2, including:
Japan seizing Manchuria from China in 1931.
Italy’s invasion and defeat of Abyssinia (Ethiopia) in 1935- Adolf Hitler’s re-militarization of Germany’s Rhineland in 1936
- The Spanish Civil War (1936–1939)
- Germany’s occupation of Czechoslovakia in 1938
One can even argue that the Second World War was simply a continuation of the First World War that had formally ended with the Treaty of Versailles in 1919!
However, it is generally accepted that the German invasion of Poland marked the date when the war became a truly global World War. That act drew the European powers and their global empires into the war. Those empires included states on every inhabited continent, making the war 'global'.
From that date, a 'world war' would continue until the war ended with Japan’s surrender in September 1945.
1
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Mark C. Wallace♦
yesterday
Curious to know which countries in south america where involved?
– Neil Meyer
14 hours ago
1
@NeilMeyer British Guiana for one. I happen to know that 22 Guianese personnel served in the Royal Air Force, and at least 40 in the Royal Navy. E. R. Braithwaite famously served as a pilot in the RAF.
– sempaiscuba♦
14 hours ago
it's to be noted, that the formal declaration of war by France and Britain didn't result in active participation of these countries in war.
– Trish
11 hours ago
@NeilMeyer Brasil was part of the allies.
– Trish
11 hours ago
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show 7 more comments
up vote
31
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Because it was the participation of the British and French empires, beginning with Declarations of War against Germany on Sept. 3, 1939, that turned several isolated regional conflicts into a World War.
The other conflicts of the 1930's had either already substantially ceased (as the Italo-Ethiopian and Spanish Civil wars) or been strictly regional affairs as in the Sino-Japanese War.
Because of the u-boat warfare between Germany and the British Empire, the conflict that started in Poland was immediately being fought on (and under) the seas of the North and South Atlantic as well as in Central and Western Europe. Additionally Commonwealth troops from as far away as Canada, Newfoundland, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand were mobilized into theatres stretching from the British Isles to the Middle East, and then India and the Pacific.
The point of no return, in other words.
– ceejayoz
10 hours ago
OTOH, it could still be considered basically a European war until December 1941, when the Japanese attacked not only Pearl Harbor, but the Phillipines, Malaya, Borneo, &c.
– jamesqf
8 hours ago
@jamesqf Axis powers invaded Africa in 1940. Likewise Axis powers invaded the USSR in June of 1941. Japan was a part of the Axis powers from 1936, reaffirmed in 1937, 1939, and 1940. While Japan did sign a non-aggression pact w/ the Soviet Union in 1941, it was still militarily bound to the Axis powers. LIkewise, China received significant aid from the USSR and the US in the 2nd Sino-Japanese War up until it was simply folded into "WWII" after the US joined the fight against Japan and the other Axis powers. I would consider it a European front/conflict, but not a war unto itself.
– TylerH
5 hours ago
@TylerH: On Sept. 26, 1939, the German cruiser Admiral Graf Spee began commerce raiding in the South Atlantic and Indian Ocean, sinking nine merchant vessels. On Dec. 13 that year it was sunk in the River Plate estuary between Argentina and Uruguay.
– Pieter Geerkens
3 hours ago
add a comment |
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20
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Short Answer
The Wikipedia entry for World War II uses the start date of 1 September 1939 because Wiki is applying the Wikipedia definition of the term "world war" as a basis, for internal consistency. One must start with a definition of that term to formulate an answer as to why.
Long Answer
Many good answers here already - each with valid points to consider, and any one of which I could accept if I had posted the question (and a +1 from me on more than one of them). However, the definition of World War has not yet been addressed (i.e. when is it appropriate to use the term World War in connection with an international conflict?).
The various definitions of the term itself include no objective criteria (e.g. 60% of nations of the globe, or 60% of the land-mass of the globe, etc.) but rather subjective criteria. For example, if using Merriam-Webster's definition:
a war engaged in by all or most of the principal nations of the world
... one must first decide what constitutes a principal nation, and then, if they are not all engaged in finding ways to kill each other, we move to the next qualifier most and decide how many is "most"? 50.00001% or more? Does most require a two-thirds majority? Three-quarters?
With such subjective measures and no objective qualifications, one then turns to historical usage of the term. Who uses it, and when? Are those sources considered authoritative?
From the Wikipedia entry on World War, there is much to be learned about the historical use of the term, which may provide an acceptable (if not definitive) answer to this question. It comes down to this: When does an international conflict become a World War? Definition from Wiki:
A world war is a large-scale war involving many of the countries of the world or many of the most powerful and populous ones. World wars span multiple countries on multiple continents, with battles fought in many theaters. While a variety of global conflicts have been subjectively deemed "world wars", such as the Cold War and the War on Terror, the term is widely and generally accepted only as it is retrospectively applied to two major international conflicts that occurred during the 20th century: World War I (1914–1918) and World War II (1939–1945).
Origin of the term (also from the same Wiki, my emphasis added below):
The Oxford English Dictionary cited the first known usage in the English language to a Scottish newspaper: the People's Journal in 1848: "A war among the great powers is now necessarily a world-war." The term "world war" had been used in 1850 by Karl Marx and his associate, Friedrich Engels, in The Class Struggles in France. Rasmus B. Anderson in 1889 described an episode in Teutonic mythology as a “world war” (Swedish: världskrig), justifying this description by a line in an Old Norse epic poem, "Völuspá: folcvig fyrst i heimi" ("The first great war in the world".) German writer August Wilhelm Otto Niemann had used the term "world war" in the title of his anti-British novel, Der Weltkrieg: Deutsche Träume (The World War: German Dreams) in 1904, published in English as The Coming Conquest of England.
In English, the term "First World War" had been used by Charles à Court Repington, as a title for his memoirs (published in 1920); he had noted his discussion on the matter with a Major Johnstone of Harvard University in his diary entry of September 10, 1918.
The term "World War I" was coined by Time magazine on page 28b of its June 12, 1939 issue. In the same article, on page 32, the term "World War II" was first used speculatively to describe the upcoming war. The first use for the actual war came in its issue of September 11, 1939. One week earlier, on September 4, the day after France and the United Kingdom declared war on Germany, the Danish newspaper Kristeligt Dagblad used the term on its front page, saying "The Second World War broke out yesterday at 11 a.m."
The Wiki section on Other global conflicts lists wars which, while global, have not been given the term "world war" (especially World War in capitals, which Merriam-Webster declares to be reserved for WWI and WWII, thus far in history anyway). Why were they not called World War X, Y or Z? Because no one did call them that. And no one does. Though anyone could. It is a socio-political term, not an objective or empirical one. It is a coined phrase. Those who coined it get to shape or influence how it is used. Like D-Day ... every operation prior to 6 June 1944 had a D-Day (day of commencing operations) and an H-Hour (starting hour). After June 6th, the term became synonymous with Operation Overlord and no one thinks of it in any other manner now.
In reading through the definitions and accepted use of the term, the consensus seems to be that there were global conflicts transpiring before 1 September 1939, but the tipping point to qualify it as a World War (among those who define or shape language or terminology, at least in a popular cultural sense) came when war was declared by several additional nations (and their respective world-spanning empires, thanks sempaiscuba) when Germany invaded Poland. Those who coined the phrase applied it to that war which started between Germany and Poland and the UK and France and their global empires when Germany invaded Poland 1 September 1939. And it stuck. And it became accepted as such. It can also be rejected as such.
EDIT: This Question has generated a variety of both Answers and Comments which express many differing opinions (granted, many backed with reasons, but still opinions), as to when the war started, who was involved at what point, how many were involved and when, at what time did the various regional conflicts cease being separate wars and become absorbed into the "world" war, etc. These are all being vigorously presented and defended and the traffic generated for this site is a good thing. I am not advocating closing this Question from the standpoint that it requires opinion-based answers. I think this kind of post and the ensuing discussion is healthy for History:SE.
What I am suggesting though is that this Question can be addressed from a marginally historic perspective, and that is by examining the historical use of the term World War II, when it came into use and by whom, what are its roots in previous usage for other global conflicts (etc.) - hence why I chose to post this Answer from that standpoint. I think this approach can keep the Question grounded in terms that are not primarily opinion-based (even though use of the term may well be challenged as opinion- or politically-based) in hopes that by doing so this Question can remain open for years to come with many more great Answers and Comments added (which at some future date others may refer back to for historical perspective by the way) without fear of having this closed for being opinion-based.
Ok... down off my soap box now. (I may remove this Edit later, just adding it here for visibility and consideration for a while.) Cheers to all! :-)
On September 1, 1939, Japan, China, Germany, and Poland were belligerents in two separate conflicts. That isn't a world war by the Wikipedia definition. It's iffy if September 3, 1939 qualifies, given the neutrality of the US, the USSR, and Italy.
– David Thornley
yesterday
1
@DavidThornley there is no objective criteria to the use of the term with regards to any definition (even in Wiki's own definition), but rather a consensus among sources using the term for any given purpose (political being the most obvious, not historical). When did the term come into use, and upon what world events was that usage based. Those are the only measures that can reasonably be applied. The exact number of belligerents is not a hard and fast figure, rather the character or nature of the conflict seem more prominent to the language arbiters in this case.
– Kerry L
yesterday
My intention is not to propose a start date. I'm pointing out that the period of September 1 through September 2 in 1939 does not constitute a world war by the standards given. Indeed, in your comment, you're talking about common usage (and September 1, 1939 is a commonly stated start date) instead of the criteria.
– David Thornley
9 hours ago
1
@DavidThornley it's a fuzzy issue. Your observations are valid, and so are many others here.
– Kerry L
9 hours ago
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8
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As to why en.wikipedia lists particular start dates, I commend to you en.wikipedia’s arcane consensus policies, the article’s page history and talk page history. For why anglophone editors from the global north construe the texts they read to support their edit warring, I supply the following:
Popular conceptions of history reflect myth-making, national imaginations, language barriers and politics.
As the phrase “world war two” isn’t a technical or theoretical concept in history—compare to “imperialist wars” which is baggage laden—we should look to the reasons in popular history.
Firstly, the world system has concentrated imperialist power in “the global north.” Japan has a notorious unwillingness to tolerate public discourse on its war with China, this being viewed as a political issue related to which class ought to control the economy.
That leaves European powers and the anglophone settler states. These cultures are heavily Eurocentric. Britain and France in particular have large associated language communities—many of which are former colonies pulled into 1939—which emphasise 1939. Polish remembrance is obvious. German culture was specifically disciplined for 1939. Other states: Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Belgium, Yugoslavia, Greece; were pulled into the 1939 war. The former Soviet Union memorialised anti Hitlerism and so also engaged in 1939 myth making.
China seems to be engaged in an exceptionalism connected to anti-Japanese anti-imperialism, and so doesn’t need “WWII” as a myth: the Sino-Japanese wars as the birth of the PRC suffices without needing a grand narrative of World War.
The US is slightly different, with a strong pull to 1941 for local reasons.
Centring social myth on 1939 reinforces the centrality of the global north’s Eurocentric myths, as essentially “the world.” The world naturally being France, Germany, the UK, their colonies and European victims. Given the decline of national imperialisms whose metropoles were European, 1945-1980, there are strong “dying empire” reasons to memorialise WWII on European terms: consider the UK’s war myths and imperial “decline.” Correspondingly the Great Patriotic War as an antifascist war in the Soviet Union was essential myth making, and the idea of a “popular front” against fascism harkens to 1939 for WWII. (The Soviet Union being transnational imperialism.)
Historians are unlikely to set a flag in the ground over sloppy nationalist posturing on a term which isn’t relevant. For long duration histories of world systems, that a period of war between metropole states existed 1914-1945 matters. At closer focuses who exactly was at war with whom matters more than a label.
It is a popular term whose meaning is political and no answer particularly interests historians. In fact, comparing why people support answers is more interesting than the idea of any particular start date.
2
I agree with your second-to-last paragraph. As another example, while history classes in Italy still try to teach about the first, the second and the third Independence War, Italians generally just talk about "Risorgimento", without detailing any more - and that's just a little over 150 years ago. In Italy, WWI was actually called "the fourth Independece War" for a while, before the concept of "two world wars" became dominant.
– Simone
yesterday
Your last sentence / paragraph is in my view the crux of the matter. Agree.
– Kerry L
yesterday
Since at least one prominent American is on record as saying "History of bunk," why should the rest of the world care about their own private version of it?
– alephzero
yesterday
Why emulate the fool their folly?
– Samuel Russell
yesterday
Actually, for the whole of postwar Soviet Union, ( as well as for modern Russia as far as I am aware) it is taught that the WW2 started on June 21,1941 and ended on May 9, 1945.
– Gnudiff
yesterday
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As the World War II Article says:
Japan, which aimed to dominate Asia and the Pacific, was at war with China by 1937[5][b]—though neither side had declared war on the other. World war is generally said to have begun on 1 September 1939,[6] with the invasion of Poland by Germany and subsequent declarations on Germany by France and the United Kingdom.
So, formal declarations occurred at the later date, and gathered more directly attacking sides, enough to call it a "World War", where before it was China + Soviets + USA vs. Japan. Although, from @chepner's comment, that alliance did not involve formal war declarations:
The US did not declare war on anyone until December 1941. The USSR didn't declare war on Japan until August 1945.
From Second Sino-Japanese War, as of the 09:16, 16 October 2018 DimensionQualm revision... At the start of the second paragraph, it says the following:
China fought Japan with aid from the Soviet Union and the United States.
Although, even though that sentence is placed early in the page, it may be talking about events that occurred after the war merged with World War II.
2
The US did not declare war on anyone until December 1941. The USSR didn't declare war on Japan until August 1945.
– chepner
yesterday
@chepner - Right. Gonna update that to clarify...
– Malandy
yesterday
Although the United States did not formally declare war until it came under attack, the President declared a state of “national emergency” on September 8, 1939. This was far from the total war that was to come, but it did involve US and German ships firing on each other. And the United States has often fought wars without formally declaring them.
– Davislor
yesterday
@Davislor - I don't know how you want me to integrate that, so go ahead and edit it in, and we'll let the community decide.
– Malandy
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
3
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Isn't that just a matter of perspective?
I wonder what the Russian text books say is the start date?
There are so many good candidates!
- September 1st 1939: Germany invaded Poland
- September 17th 1939: Russia invaded Poland in partnership with Germany
- November 30th 1939: Russia invaded Finland (a disastrous war which helped convince Germany that the Russian army sucked)?
- June 22nd 1941: the day Germany invaded Russia
For Germany, it was definitely September 1st 1939.
For Italy, the war probably began on October 3rd 1935 when they invaded Ethiopia.
For America, the war began December 7th 1941.
For Britain (and France), the war began September 3rd 1939.
For China, July 7th 1937.
For Japan, it is less clear: they executed a series of creeping expansion all through the 1900s, until it all blew up in their faces.
I think what I am trying to say is, dates really aren't as important as high school history teachers make them out to be. Yes, you need to know the dates, but more importantly, we must understand how the EVENTS that took place on those dates affected each other and the world we all live in today.
Because, like it or not, all of us are living in the shadows of events that took place hundreds of years ago. I would say our politics, our culture, even our lives are shaped by those events.
New contributor
1
Fun fact: you can put down September 11, 1941 as the date the US entered the war, as Roosevelt told the USN to wage war in the North Atlantic. That war remained undeclared for months. Yet another date to consider.
– David Thornley
yesterday
1
Another fun fact: a Russian text book would likely have no mention of something called World War Two, but rather The Great Patriotic War.
– Kerry L
yesterday
3
@KerryL While my childhood's Soviet textbooks used mostly GPW, the term was used interchangeably with WW2 both in them and in lots of other places -- forcing the unspecified implication that they were the same, even though they weren't. Until 1991, we were taught that WW2 started in June 22,1941 and ended on May 9, 1945 (Victory day celebration in the USSR), despite the fact that it was "only" GPW-part of WW2. Granted, I was not a history addict, so I might have missed, if the difference was explained somewhere, but if I was thinking GPW=WW2, I was among the majority.
– Gnudiff
yesterday
add a comment |
6 Answers
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6 Answers
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Actually, good arguments can be put forward for both dates as the the 'start' of World War 2. In fact a number of other dates have also been suggested for the 'start' of World War 2, including:
Japan seizing Manchuria from China in 1931.
Italy’s invasion and defeat of Abyssinia (Ethiopia) in 1935- Adolf Hitler’s re-militarization of Germany’s Rhineland in 1936
- The Spanish Civil War (1936–1939)
- Germany’s occupation of Czechoslovakia in 1938
One can even argue that the Second World War was simply a continuation of the First World War that had formally ended with the Treaty of Versailles in 1919!
However, it is generally accepted that the German invasion of Poland marked the date when the war became a truly global World War. That act drew the European powers and their global empires into the war. Those empires included states on every inhabited continent, making the war 'global'.
From that date, a 'world war' would continue until the war ended with Japan’s surrender in September 1945.
1
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Mark C. Wallace♦
yesterday
Curious to know which countries in south america where involved?
– Neil Meyer
14 hours ago
1
@NeilMeyer British Guiana for one. I happen to know that 22 Guianese personnel served in the Royal Air Force, and at least 40 in the Royal Navy. E. R. Braithwaite famously served as a pilot in the RAF.
– sempaiscuba♦
14 hours ago
it's to be noted, that the formal declaration of war by France and Britain didn't result in active participation of these countries in war.
– Trish
11 hours ago
@NeilMeyer Brasil was part of the allies.
– Trish
11 hours ago
|
show 7 more comments
up vote
110
down vote
Actually, good arguments can be put forward for both dates as the the 'start' of World War 2. In fact a number of other dates have also been suggested for the 'start' of World War 2, including:
Japan seizing Manchuria from China in 1931.
Italy’s invasion and defeat of Abyssinia (Ethiopia) in 1935- Adolf Hitler’s re-militarization of Germany’s Rhineland in 1936
- The Spanish Civil War (1936–1939)
- Germany’s occupation of Czechoslovakia in 1938
One can even argue that the Second World War was simply a continuation of the First World War that had formally ended with the Treaty of Versailles in 1919!
However, it is generally accepted that the German invasion of Poland marked the date when the war became a truly global World War. That act drew the European powers and their global empires into the war. Those empires included states on every inhabited continent, making the war 'global'.
From that date, a 'world war' would continue until the war ended with Japan’s surrender in September 1945.
1
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Mark C. Wallace♦
yesterday
Curious to know which countries in south america where involved?
– Neil Meyer
14 hours ago
1
@NeilMeyer British Guiana for one. I happen to know that 22 Guianese personnel served in the Royal Air Force, and at least 40 in the Royal Navy. E. R. Braithwaite famously served as a pilot in the RAF.
– sempaiscuba♦
14 hours ago
it's to be noted, that the formal declaration of war by France and Britain didn't result in active participation of these countries in war.
– Trish
11 hours ago
@NeilMeyer Brasil was part of the allies.
– Trish
11 hours ago
|
show 7 more comments
up vote
110
down vote
up vote
110
down vote
Actually, good arguments can be put forward for both dates as the the 'start' of World War 2. In fact a number of other dates have also been suggested for the 'start' of World War 2, including:
Japan seizing Manchuria from China in 1931.
Italy’s invasion and defeat of Abyssinia (Ethiopia) in 1935- Adolf Hitler’s re-militarization of Germany’s Rhineland in 1936
- The Spanish Civil War (1936–1939)
- Germany’s occupation of Czechoslovakia in 1938
One can even argue that the Second World War was simply a continuation of the First World War that had formally ended with the Treaty of Versailles in 1919!
However, it is generally accepted that the German invasion of Poland marked the date when the war became a truly global World War. That act drew the European powers and their global empires into the war. Those empires included states on every inhabited continent, making the war 'global'.
From that date, a 'world war' would continue until the war ended with Japan’s surrender in September 1945.
Actually, good arguments can be put forward for both dates as the the 'start' of World War 2. In fact a number of other dates have also been suggested for the 'start' of World War 2, including:
Japan seizing Manchuria from China in 1931.
Italy’s invasion and defeat of Abyssinia (Ethiopia) in 1935- Adolf Hitler’s re-militarization of Germany’s Rhineland in 1936
- The Spanish Civil War (1936–1939)
- Germany’s occupation of Czechoslovakia in 1938
One can even argue that the Second World War was simply a continuation of the First World War that had formally ended with the Treaty of Versailles in 1919!
However, it is generally accepted that the German invasion of Poland marked the date when the war became a truly global World War. That act drew the European powers and their global empires into the war. Those empires included states on every inhabited continent, making the war 'global'.
From that date, a 'world war' would continue until the war ended with Japan’s surrender in September 1945.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
sempaiscuba♦
43.9k5154197
43.9k5154197
1
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Mark C. Wallace♦
yesterday
Curious to know which countries in south america where involved?
– Neil Meyer
14 hours ago
1
@NeilMeyer British Guiana for one. I happen to know that 22 Guianese personnel served in the Royal Air Force, and at least 40 in the Royal Navy. E. R. Braithwaite famously served as a pilot in the RAF.
– sempaiscuba♦
14 hours ago
it's to be noted, that the formal declaration of war by France and Britain didn't result in active participation of these countries in war.
– Trish
11 hours ago
@NeilMeyer Brasil was part of the allies.
– Trish
11 hours ago
|
show 7 more comments
1
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Mark C. Wallace♦
yesterday
Curious to know which countries in south america where involved?
– Neil Meyer
14 hours ago
1
@NeilMeyer British Guiana for one. I happen to know that 22 Guianese personnel served in the Royal Air Force, and at least 40 in the Royal Navy. E. R. Braithwaite famously served as a pilot in the RAF.
– sempaiscuba♦
14 hours ago
it's to be noted, that the formal declaration of war by France and Britain didn't result in active participation of these countries in war.
– Trish
11 hours ago
@NeilMeyer Brasil was part of the allies.
– Trish
11 hours ago
1
1
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Mark C. Wallace♦
yesterday
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Mark C. Wallace♦
yesterday
Curious to know which countries in south america where involved?
– Neil Meyer
14 hours ago
Curious to know which countries in south america where involved?
– Neil Meyer
14 hours ago
1
1
@NeilMeyer British Guiana for one. I happen to know that 22 Guianese personnel served in the Royal Air Force, and at least 40 in the Royal Navy. E. R. Braithwaite famously served as a pilot in the RAF.
– sempaiscuba♦
14 hours ago
@NeilMeyer British Guiana for one. I happen to know that 22 Guianese personnel served in the Royal Air Force, and at least 40 in the Royal Navy. E. R. Braithwaite famously served as a pilot in the RAF.
– sempaiscuba♦
14 hours ago
it's to be noted, that the formal declaration of war by France and Britain didn't result in active participation of these countries in war.
– Trish
11 hours ago
it's to be noted, that the formal declaration of war by France and Britain didn't result in active participation of these countries in war.
– Trish
11 hours ago
@NeilMeyer Brasil was part of the allies.
– Trish
11 hours ago
@NeilMeyer Brasil was part of the allies.
– Trish
11 hours ago
|
show 7 more comments
up vote
31
down vote
Because it was the participation of the British and French empires, beginning with Declarations of War against Germany on Sept. 3, 1939, that turned several isolated regional conflicts into a World War.
The other conflicts of the 1930's had either already substantially ceased (as the Italo-Ethiopian and Spanish Civil wars) or been strictly regional affairs as in the Sino-Japanese War.
Because of the u-boat warfare between Germany and the British Empire, the conflict that started in Poland was immediately being fought on (and under) the seas of the North and South Atlantic as well as in Central and Western Europe. Additionally Commonwealth troops from as far away as Canada, Newfoundland, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand were mobilized into theatres stretching from the British Isles to the Middle East, and then India and the Pacific.
The point of no return, in other words.
– ceejayoz
10 hours ago
OTOH, it could still be considered basically a European war until December 1941, when the Japanese attacked not only Pearl Harbor, but the Phillipines, Malaya, Borneo, &c.
– jamesqf
8 hours ago
@jamesqf Axis powers invaded Africa in 1940. Likewise Axis powers invaded the USSR in June of 1941. Japan was a part of the Axis powers from 1936, reaffirmed in 1937, 1939, and 1940. While Japan did sign a non-aggression pact w/ the Soviet Union in 1941, it was still militarily bound to the Axis powers. LIkewise, China received significant aid from the USSR and the US in the 2nd Sino-Japanese War up until it was simply folded into "WWII" after the US joined the fight against Japan and the other Axis powers. I would consider it a European front/conflict, but not a war unto itself.
– TylerH
5 hours ago
@TylerH: On Sept. 26, 1939, the German cruiser Admiral Graf Spee began commerce raiding in the South Atlantic and Indian Ocean, sinking nine merchant vessels. On Dec. 13 that year it was sunk in the River Plate estuary between Argentina and Uruguay.
– Pieter Geerkens
3 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
31
down vote
Because it was the participation of the British and French empires, beginning with Declarations of War against Germany on Sept. 3, 1939, that turned several isolated regional conflicts into a World War.
The other conflicts of the 1930's had either already substantially ceased (as the Italo-Ethiopian and Spanish Civil wars) or been strictly regional affairs as in the Sino-Japanese War.
Because of the u-boat warfare between Germany and the British Empire, the conflict that started in Poland was immediately being fought on (and under) the seas of the North and South Atlantic as well as in Central and Western Europe. Additionally Commonwealth troops from as far away as Canada, Newfoundland, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand were mobilized into theatres stretching from the British Isles to the Middle East, and then India and the Pacific.
The point of no return, in other words.
– ceejayoz
10 hours ago
OTOH, it could still be considered basically a European war until December 1941, when the Japanese attacked not only Pearl Harbor, but the Phillipines, Malaya, Borneo, &c.
– jamesqf
8 hours ago
@jamesqf Axis powers invaded Africa in 1940. Likewise Axis powers invaded the USSR in June of 1941. Japan was a part of the Axis powers from 1936, reaffirmed in 1937, 1939, and 1940. While Japan did sign a non-aggression pact w/ the Soviet Union in 1941, it was still militarily bound to the Axis powers. LIkewise, China received significant aid from the USSR and the US in the 2nd Sino-Japanese War up until it was simply folded into "WWII" after the US joined the fight against Japan and the other Axis powers. I would consider it a European front/conflict, but not a war unto itself.
– TylerH
5 hours ago
@TylerH: On Sept. 26, 1939, the German cruiser Admiral Graf Spee began commerce raiding in the South Atlantic and Indian Ocean, sinking nine merchant vessels. On Dec. 13 that year it was sunk in the River Plate estuary between Argentina and Uruguay.
– Pieter Geerkens
3 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
31
down vote
up vote
31
down vote
Because it was the participation of the British and French empires, beginning with Declarations of War against Germany on Sept. 3, 1939, that turned several isolated regional conflicts into a World War.
The other conflicts of the 1930's had either already substantially ceased (as the Italo-Ethiopian and Spanish Civil wars) or been strictly regional affairs as in the Sino-Japanese War.
Because of the u-boat warfare between Germany and the British Empire, the conflict that started in Poland was immediately being fought on (and under) the seas of the North and South Atlantic as well as in Central and Western Europe. Additionally Commonwealth troops from as far away as Canada, Newfoundland, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand were mobilized into theatres stretching from the British Isles to the Middle East, and then India and the Pacific.
Because it was the participation of the British and French empires, beginning with Declarations of War against Germany on Sept. 3, 1939, that turned several isolated regional conflicts into a World War.
The other conflicts of the 1930's had either already substantially ceased (as the Italo-Ethiopian and Spanish Civil wars) or been strictly regional affairs as in the Sino-Japanese War.
Because of the u-boat warfare between Germany and the British Empire, the conflict that started in Poland was immediately being fought on (and under) the seas of the North and South Atlantic as well as in Central and Western Europe. Additionally Commonwealth troops from as far away as Canada, Newfoundland, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand were mobilized into theatres stretching from the British Isles to the Middle East, and then India and the Pacific.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
Pieter Geerkens
36.6k5104177
36.6k5104177
The point of no return, in other words.
– ceejayoz
10 hours ago
OTOH, it could still be considered basically a European war until December 1941, when the Japanese attacked not only Pearl Harbor, but the Phillipines, Malaya, Borneo, &c.
– jamesqf
8 hours ago
@jamesqf Axis powers invaded Africa in 1940. Likewise Axis powers invaded the USSR in June of 1941. Japan was a part of the Axis powers from 1936, reaffirmed in 1937, 1939, and 1940. While Japan did sign a non-aggression pact w/ the Soviet Union in 1941, it was still militarily bound to the Axis powers. LIkewise, China received significant aid from the USSR and the US in the 2nd Sino-Japanese War up until it was simply folded into "WWII" after the US joined the fight against Japan and the other Axis powers. I would consider it a European front/conflict, but not a war unto itself.
– TylerH
5 hours ago
@TylerH: On Sept. 26, 1939, the German cruiser Admiral Graf Spee began commerce raiding in the South Atlantic and Indian Ocean, sinking nine merchant vessels. On Dec. 13 that year it was sunk in the River Plate estuary between Argentina and Uruguay.
– Pieter Geerkens
3 hours ago
add a comment |
The point of no return, in other words.
– ceejayoz
10 hours ago
OTOH, it could still be considered basically a European war until December 1941, when the Japanese attacked not only Pearl Harbor, but the Phillipines, Malaya, Borneo, &c.
– jamesqf
8 hours ago
@jamesqf Axis powers invaded Africa in 1940. Likewise Axis powers invaded the USSR in June of 1941. Japan was a part of the Axis powers from 1936, reaffirmed in 1937, 1939, and 1940. While Japan did sign a non-aggression pact w/ the Soviet Union in 1941, it was still militarily bound to the Axis powers. LIkewise, China received significant aid from the USSR and the US in the 2nd Sino-Japanese War up until it was simply folded into "WWII" after the US joined the fight against Japan and the other Axis powers. I would consider it a European front/conflict, but not a war unto itself.
– TylerH
5 hours ago
@TylerH: On Sept. 26, 1939, the German cruiser Admiral Graf Spee began commerce raiding in the South Atlantic and Indian Ocean, sinking nine merchant vessels. On Dec. 13 that year it was sunk in the River Plate estuary between Argentina and Uruguay.
– Pieter Geerkens
3 hours ago
The point of no return, in other words.
– ceejayoz
10 hours ago
The point of no return, in other words.
– ceejayoz
10 hours ago
OTOH, it could still be considered basically a European war until December 1941, when the Japanese attacked not only Pearl Harbor, but the Phillipines, Malaya, Borneo, &c.
– jamesqf
8 hours ago
OTOH, it could still be considered basically a European war until December 1941, when the Japanese attacked not only Pearl Harbor, but the Phillipines, Malaya, Borneo, &c.
– jamesqf
8 hours ago
@jamesqf Axis powers invaded Africa in 1940. Likewise Axis powers invaded the USSR in June of 1941. Japan was a part of the Axis powers from 1936, reaffirmed in 1937, 1939, and 1940. While Japan did sign a non-aggression pact w/ the Soviet Union in 1941, it was still militarily bound to the Axis powers. LIkewise, China received significant aid from the USSR and the US in the 2nd Sino-Japanese War up until it was simply folded into "WWII" after the US joined the fight against Japan and the other Axis powers. I would consider it a European front/conflict, but not a war unto itself.
– TylerH
5 hours ago
@jamesqf Axis powers invaded Africa in 1940. Likewise Axis powers invaded the USSR in June of 1941. Japan was a part of the Axis powers from 1936, reaffirmed in 1937, 1939, and 1940. While Japan did sign a non-aggression pact w/ the Soviet Union in 1941, it was still militarily bound to the Axis powers. LIkewise, China received significant aid from the USSR and the US in the 2nd Sino-Japanese War up until it was simply folded into "WWII" after the US joined the fight against Japan and the other Axis powers. I would consider it a European front/conflict, but not a war unto itself.
– TylerH
5 hours ago
@TylerH: On Sept. 26, 1939, the German cruiser Admiral Graf Spee began commerce raiding in the South Atlantic and Indian Ocean, sinking nine merchant vessels. On Dec. 13 that year it was sunk in the River Plate estuary between Argentina and Uruguay.
– Pieter Geerkens
3 hours ago
@TylerH: On Sept. 26, 1939, the German cruiser Admiral Graf Spee began commerce raiding in the South Atlantic and Indian Ocean, sinking nine merchant vessels. On Dec. 13 that year it was sunk in the River Plate estuary between Argentina and Uruguay.
– Pieter Geerkens
3 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
20
down vote
Short Answer
The Wikipedia entry for World War II uses the start date of 1 September 1939 because Wiki is applying the Wikipedia definition of the term "world war" as a basis, for internal consistency. One must start with a definition of that term to formulate an answer as to why.
Long Answer
Many good answers here already - each with valid points to consider, and any one of which I could accept if I had posted the question (and a +1 from me on more than one of them). However, the definition of World War has not yet been addressed (i.e. when is it appropriate to use the term World War in connection with an international conflict?).
The various definitions of the term itself include no objective criteria (e.g. 60% of nations of the globe, or 60% of the land-mass of the globe, etc.) but rather subjective criteria. For example, if using Merriam-Webster's definition:
a war engaged in by all or most of the principal nations of the world
... one must first decide what constitutes a principal nation, and then, if they are not all engaged in finding ways to kill each other, we move to the next qualifier most and decide how many is "most"? 50.00001% or more? Does most require a two-thirds majority? Three-quarters?
With such subjective measures and no objective qualifications, one then turns to historical usage of the term. Who uses it, and when? Are those sources considered authoritative?
From the Wikipedia entry on World War, there is much to be learned about the historical use of the term, which may provide an acceptable (if not definitive) answer to this question. It comes down to this: When does an international conflict become a World War? Definition from Wiki:
A world war is a large-scale war involving many of the countries of the world or many of the most powerful and populous ones. World wars span multiple countries on multiple continents, with battles fought in many theaters. While a variety of global conflicts have been subjectively deemed "world wars", such as the Cold War and the War on Terror, the term is widely and generally accepted only as it is retrospectively applied to two major international conflicts that occurred during the 20th century: World War I (1914–1918) and World War II (1939–1945).
Origin of the term (also from the same Wiki, my emphasis added below):
The Oxford English Dictionary cited the first known usage in the English language to a Scottish newspaper: the People's Journal in 1848: "A war among the great powers is now necessarily a world-war." The term "world war" had been used in 1850 by Karl Marx and his associate, Friedrich Engels, in The Class Struggles in France. Rasmus B. Anderson in 1889 described an episode in Teutonic mythology as a “world war” (Swedish: världskrig), justifying this description by a line in an Old Norse epic poem, "Völuspá: folcvig fyrst i heimi" ("The first great war in the world".) German writer August Wilhelm Otto Niemann had used the term "world war" in the title of his anti-British novel, Der Weltkrieg: Deutsche Träume (The World War: German Dreams) in 1904, published in English as The Coming Conquest of England.
In English, the term "First World War" had been used by Charles à Court Repington, as a title for his memoirs (published in 1920); he had noted his discussion on the matter with a Major Johnstone of Harvard University in his diary entry of September 10, 1918.
The term "World War I" was coined by Time magazine on page 28b of its June 12, 1939 issue. In the same article, on page 32, the term "World War II" was first used speculatively to describe the upcoming war. The first use for the actual war came in its issue of September 11, 1939. One week earlier, on September 4, the day after France and the United Kingdom declared war on Germany, the Danish newspaper Kristeligt Dagblad used the term on its front page, saying "The Second World War broke out yesterday at 11 a.m."
The Wiki section on Other global conflicts lists wars which, while global, have not been given the term "world war" (especially World War in capitals, which Merriam-Webster declares to be reserved for WWI and WWII, thus far in history anyway). Why were they not called World War X, Y or Z? Because no one did call them that. And no one does. Though anyone could. It is a socio-political term, not an objective or empirical one. It is a coined phrase. Those who coined it get to shape or influence how it is used. Like D-Day ... every operation prior to 6 June 1944 had a D-Day (day of commencing operations) and an H-Hour (starting hour). After June 6th, the term became synonymous with Operation Overlord and no one thinks of it in any other manner now.
In reading through the definitions and accepted use of the term, the consensus seems to be that there were global conflicts transpiring before 1 September 1939, but the tipping point to qualify it as a World War (among those who define or shape language or terminology, at least in a popular cultural sense) came when war was declared by several additional nations (and their respective world-spanning empires, thanks sempaiscuba) when Germany invaded Poland. Those who coined the phrase applied it to that war which started between Germany and Poland and the UK and France and their global empires when Germany invaded Poland 1 September 1939. And it stuck. And it became accepted as such. It can also be rejected as such.
EDIT: This Question has generated a variety of both Answers and Comments which express many differing opinions (granted, many backed with reasons, but still opinions), as to when the war started, who was involved at what point, how many were involved and when, at what time did the various regional conflicts cease being separate wars and become absorbed into the "world" war, etc. These are all being vigorously presented and defended and the traffic generated for this site is a good thing. I am not advocating closing this Question from the standpoint that it requires opinion-based answers. I think this kind of post and the ensuing discussion is healthy for History:SE.
What I am suggesting though is that this Question can be addressed from a marginally historic perspective, and that is by examining the historical use of the term World War II, when it came into use and by whom, what are its roots in previous usage for other global conflicts (etc.) - hence why I chose to post this Answer from that standpoint. I think this approach can keep the Question grounded in terms that are not primarily opinion-based (even though use of the term may well be challenged as opinion- or politically-based) in hopes that by doing so this Question can remain open for years to come with many more great Answers and Comments added (which at some future date others may refer back to for historical perspective by the way) without fear of having this closed for being opinion-based.
Ok... down off my soap box now. (I may remove this Edit later, just adding it here for visibility and consideration for a while.) Cheers to all! :-)
On September 1, 1939, Japan, China, Germany, and Poland were belligerents in two separate conflicts. That isn't a world war by the Wikipedia definition. It's iffy if September 3, 1939 qualifies, given the neutrality of the US, the USSR, and Italy.
– David Thornley
yesterday
1
@DavidThornley there is no objective criteria to the use of the term with regards to any definition (even in Wiki's own definition), but rather a consensus among sources using the term for any given purpose (political being the most obvious, not historical). When did the term come into use, and upon what world events was that usage based. Those are the only measures that can reasonably be applied. The exact number of belligerents is not a hard and fast figure, rather the character or nature of the conflict seem more prominent to the language arbiters in this case.
– Kerry L
yesterday
My intention is not to propose a start date. I'm pointing out that the period of September 1 through September 2 in 1939 does not constitute a world war by the standards given. Indeed, in your comment, you're talking about common usage (and September 1, 1939 is a commonly stated start date) instead of the criteria.
– David Thornley
9 hours ago
1
@DavidThornley it's a fuzzy issue. Your observations are valid, and so are many others here.
– Kerry L
9 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
20
down vote
Short Answer
The Wikipedia entry for World War II uses the start date of 1 September 1939 because Wiki is applying the Wikipedia definition of the term "world war" as a basis, for internal consistency. One must start with a definition of that term to formulate an answer as to why.
Long Answer
Many good answers here already - each with valid points to consider, and any one of which I could accept if I had posted the question (and a +1 from me on more than one of them). However, the definition of World War has not yet been addressed (i.e. when is it appropriate to use the term World War in connection with an international conflict?).
The various definitions of the term itself include no objective criteria (e.g. 60% of nations of the globe, or 60% of the land-mass of the globe, etc.) but rather subjective criteria. For example, if using Merriam-Webster's definition:
a war engaged in by all or most of the principal nations of the world
... one must first decide what constitutes a principal nation, and then, if they are not all engaged in finding ways to kill each other, we move to the next qualifier most and decide how many is "most"? 50.00001% or more? Does most require a two-thirds majority? Three-quarters?
With such subjective measures and no objective qualifications, one then turns to historical usage of the term. Who uses it, and when? Are those sources considered authoritative?
From the Wikipedia entry on World War, there is much to be learned about the historical use of the term, which may provide an acceptable (if not definitive) answer to this question. It comes down to this: When does an international conflict become a World War? Definition from Wiki:
A world war is a large-scale war involving many of the countries of the world or many of the most powerful and populous ones. World wars span multiple countries on multiple continents, with battles fought in many theaters. While a variety of global conflicts have been subjectively deemed "world wars", such as the Cold War and the War on Terror, the term is widely and generally accepted only as it is retrospectively applied to two major international conflicts that occurred during the 20th century: World War I (1914–1918) and World War II (1939–1945).
Origin of the term (also from the same Wiki, my emphasis added below):
The Oxford English Dictionary cited the first known usage in the English language to a Scottish newspaper: the People's Journal in 1848: "A war among the great powers is now necessarily a world-war." The term "world war" had been used in 1850 by Karl Marx and his associate, Friedrich Engels, in The Class Struggles in France. Rasmus B. Anderson in 1889 described an episode in Teutonic mythology as a “world war” (Swedish: världskrig), justifying this description by a line in an Old Norse epic poem, "Völuspá: folcvig fyrst i heimi" ("The first great war in the world".) German writer August Wilhelm Otto Niemann had used the term "world war" in the title of his anti-British novel, Der Weltkrieg: Deutsche Träume (The World War: German Dreams) in 1904, published in English as The Coming Conquest of England.
In English, the term "First World War" had been used by Charles à Court Repington, as a title for his memoirs (published in 1920); he had noted his discussion on the matter with a Major Johnstone of Harvard University in his diary entry of September 10, 1918.
The term "World War I" was coined by Time magazine on page 28b of its June 12, 1939 issue. In the same article, on page 32, the term "World War II" was first used speculatively to describe the upcoming war. The first use for the actual war came in its issue of September 11, 1939. One week earlier, on September 4, the day after France and the United Kingdom declared war on Germany, the Danish newspaper Kristeligt Dagblad used the term on its front page, saying "The Second World War broke out yesterday at 11 a.m."
The Wiki section on Other global conflicts lists wars which, while global, have not been given the term "world war" (especially World War in capitals, which Merriam-Webster declares to be reserved for WWI and WWII, thus far in history anyway). Why were they not called World War X, Y or Z? Because no one did call them that. And no one does. Though anyone could. It is a socio-political term, not an objective or empirical one. It is a coined phrase. Those who coined it get to shape or influence how it is used. Like D-Day ... every operation prior to 6 June 1944 had a D-Day (day of commencing operations) and an H-Hour (starting hour). After June 6th, the term became synonymous with Operation Overlord and no one thinks of it in any other manner now.
In reading through the definitions and accepted use of the term, the consensus seems to be that there were global conflicts transpiring before 1 September 1939, but the tipping point to qualify it as a World War (among those who define or shape language or terminology, at least in a popular cultural sense) came when war was declared by several additional nations (and their respective world-spanning empires, thanks sempaiscuba) when Germany invaded Poland. Those who coined the phrase applied it to that war which started between Germany and Poland and the UK and France and their global empires when Germany invaded Poland 1 September 1939. And it stuck. And it became accepted as such. It can also be rejected as such.
EDIT: This Question has generated a variety of both Answers and Comments which express many differing opinions (granted, many backed with reasons, but still opinions), as to when the war started, who was involved at what point, how many were involved and when, at what time did the various regional conflicts cease being separate wars and become absorbed into the "world" war, etc. These are all being vigorously presented and defended and the traffic generated for this site is a good thing. I am not advocating closing this Question from the standpoint that it requires opinion-based answers. I think this kind of post and the ensuing discussion is healthy for History:SE.
What I am suggesting though is that this Question can be addressed from a marginally historic perspective, and that is by examining the historical use of the term World War II, when it came into use and by whom, what are its roots in previous usage for other global conflicts (etc.) - hence why I chose to post this Answer from that standpoint. I think this approach can keep the Question grounded in terms that are not primarily opinion-based (even though use of the term may well be challenged as opinion- or politically-based) in hopes that by doing so this Question can remain open for years to come with many more great Answers and Comments added (which at some future date others may refer back to for historical perspective by the way) without fear of having this closed for being opinion-based.
Ok... down off my soap box now. (I may remove this Edit later, just adding it here for visibility and consideration for a while.) Cheers to all! :-)
On September 1, 1939, Japan, China, Germany, and Poland were belligerents in two separate conflicts. That isn't a world war by the Wikipedia definition. It's iffy if September 3, 1939 qualifies, given the neutrality of the US, the USSR, and Italy.
– David Thornley
yesterday
1
@DavidThornley there is no objective criteria to the use of the term with regards to any definition (even in Wiki's own definition), but rather a consensus among sources using the term for any given purpose (political being the most obvious, not historical). When did the term come into use, and upon what world events was that usage based. Those are the only measures that can reasonably be applied. The exact number of belligerents is not a hard and fast figure, rather the character or nature of the conflict seem more prominent to the language arbiters in this case.
– Kerry L
yesterday
My intention is not to propose a start date. I'm pointing out that the period of September 1 through September 2 in 1939 does not constitute a world war by the standards given. Indeed, in your comment, you're talking about common usage (and September 1, 1939 is a commonly stated start date) instead of the criteria.
– David Thornley
9 hours ago
1
@DavidThornley it's a fuzzy issue. Your observations are valid, and so are many others here.
– Kerry L
9 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
20
down vote
up vote
20
down vote
Short Answer
The Wikipedia entry for World War II uses the start date of 1 September 1939 because Wiki is applying the Wikipedia definition of the term "world war" as a basis, for internal consistency. One must start with a definition of that term to formulate an answer as to why.
Long Answer
Many good answers here already - each with valid points to consider, and any one of which I could accept if I had posted the question (and a +1 from me on more than one of them). However, the definition of World War has not yet been addressed (i.e. when is it appropriate to use the term World War in connection with an international conflict?).
The various definitions of the term itself include no objective criteria (e.g. 60% of nations of the globe, or 60% of the land-mass of the globe, etc.) but rather subjective criteria. For example, if using Merriam-Webster's definition:
a war engaged in by all or most of the principal nations of the world
... one must first decide what constitutes a principal nation, and then, if they are not all engaged in finding ways to kill each other, we move to the next qualifier most and decide how many is "most"? 50.00001% or more? Does most require a two-thirds majority? Three-quarters?
With such subjective measures and no objective qualifications, one then turns to historical usage of the term. Who uses it, and when? Are those sources considered authoritative?
From the Wikipedia entry on World War, there is much to be learned about the historical use of the term, which may provide an acceptable (if not definitive) answer to this question. It comes down to this: When does an international conflict become a World War? Definition from Wiki:
A world war is a large-scale war involving many of the countries of the world or many of the most powerful and populous ones. World wars span multiple countries on multiple continents, with battles fought in many theaters. While a variety of global conflicts have been subjectively deemed "world wars", such as the Cold War and the War on Terror, the term is widely and generally accepted only as it is retrospectively applied to two major international conflicts that occurred during the 20th century: World War I (1914–1918) and World War II (1939–1945).
Origin of the term (also from the same Wiki, my emphasis added below):
The Oxford English Dictionary cited the first known usage in the English language to a Scottish newspaper: the People's Journal in 1848: "A war among the great powers is now necessarily a world-war." The term "world war" had been used in 1850 by Karl Marx and his associate, Friedrich Engels, in The Class Struggles in France. Rasmus B. Anderson in 1889 described an episode in Teutonic mythology as a “world war” (Swedish: världskrig), justifying this description by a line in an Old Norse epic poem, "Völuspá: folcvig fyrst i heimi" ("The first great war in the world".) German writer August Wilhelm Otto Niemann had used the term "world war" in the title of his anti-British novel, Der Weltkrieg: Deutsche Träume (The World War: German Dreams) in 1904, published in English as The Coming Conquest of England.
In English, the term "First World War" had been used by Charles à Court Repington, as a title for his memoirs (published in 1920); he had noted his discussion on the matter with a Major Johnstone of Harvard University in his diary entry of September 10, 1918.
The term "World War I" was coined by Time magazine on page 28b of its June 12, 1939 issue. In the same article, on page 32, the term "World War II" was first used speculatively to describe the upcoming war. The first use for the actual war came in its issue of September 11, 1939. One week earlier, on September 4, the day after France and the United Kingdom declared war on Germany, the Danish newspaper Kristeligt Dagblad used the term on its front page, saying "The Second World War broke out yesterday at 11 a.m."
The Wiki section on Other global conflicts lists wars which, while global, have not been given the term "world war" (especially World War in capitals, which Merriam-Webster declares to be reserved for WWI and WWII, thus far in history anyway). Why were they not called World War X, Y or Z? Because no one did call them that. And no one does. Though anyone could. It is a socio-political term, not an objective or empirical one. It is a coined phrase. Those who coined it get to shape or influence how it is used. Like D-Day ... every operation prior to 6 June 1944 had a D-Day (day of commencing operations) and an H-Hour (starting hour). After June 6th, the term became synonymous with Operation Overlord and no one thinks of it in any other manner now.
In reading through the definitions and accepted use of the term, the consensus seems to be that there were global conflicts transpiring before 1 September 1939, but the tipping point to qualify it as a World War (among those who define or shape language or terminology, at least in a popular cultural sense) came when war was declared by several additional nations (and their respective world-spanning empires, thanks sempaiscuba) when Germany invaded Poland. Those who coined the phrase applied it to that war which started between Germany and Poland and the UK and France and their global empires when Germany invaded Poland 1 September 1939. And it stuck. And it became accepted as such. It can also be rejected as such.
EDIT: This Question has generated a variety of both Answers and Comments which express many differing opinions (granted, many backed with reasons, but still opinions), as to when the war started, who was involved at what point, how many were involved and when, at what time did the various regional conflicts cease being separate wars and become absorbed into the "world" war, etc. These are all being vigorously presented and defended and the traffic generated for this site is a good thing. I am not advocating closing this Question from the standpoint that it requires opinion-based answers. I think this kind of post and the ensuing discussion is healthy for History:SE.
What I am suggesting though is that this Question can be addressed from a marginally historic perspective, and that is by examining the historical use of the term World War II, when it came into use and by whom, what are its roots in previous usage for other global conflicts (etc.) - hence why I chose to post this Answer from that standpoint. I think this approach can keep the Question grounded in terms that are not primarily opinion-based (even though use of the term may well be challenged as opinion- or politically-based) in hopes that by doing so this Question can remain open for years to come with many more great Answers and Comments added (which at some future date others may refer back to for historical perspective by the way) without fear of having this closed for being opinion-based.
Ok... down off my soap box now. (I may remove this Edit later, just adding it here for visibility and consideration for a while.) Cheers to all! :-)
Short Answer
The Wikipedia entry for World War II uses the start date of 1 September 1939 because Wiki is applying the Wikipedia definition of the term "world war" as a basis, for internal consistency. One must start with a definition of that term to formulate an answer as to why.
Long Answer
Many good answers here already - each with valid points to consider, and any one of which I could accept if I had posted the question (and a +1 from me on more than one of them). However, the definition of World War has not yet been addressed (i.e. when is it appropriate to use the term World War in connection with an international conflict?).
The various definitions of the term itself include no objective criteria (e.g. 60% of nations of the globe, or 60% of the land-mass of the globe, etc.) but rather subjective criteria. For example, if using Merriam-Webster's definition:
a war engaged in by all or most of the principal nations of the world
... one must first decide what constitutes a principal nation, and then, if they are not all engaged in finding ways to kill each other, we move to the next qualifier most and decide how many is "most"? 50.00001% or more? Does most require a two-thirds majority? Three-quarters?
With such subjective measures and no objective qualifications, one then turns to historical usage of the term. Who uses it, and when? Are those sources considered authoritative?
From the Wikipedia entry on World War, there is much to be learned about the historical use of the term, which may provide an acceptable (if not definitive) answer to this question. It comes down to this: When does an international conflict become a World War? Definition from Wiki:
A world war is a large-scale war involving many of the countries of the world or many of the most powerful and populous ones. World wars span multiple countries on multiple continents, with battles fought in many theaters. While a variety of global conflicts have been subjectively deemed "world wars", such as the Cold War and the War on Terror, the term is widely and generally accepted only as it is retrospectively applied to two major international conflicts that occurred during the 20th century: World War I (1914–1918) and World War II (1939–1945).
Origin of the term (also from the same Wiki, my emphasis added below):
The Oxford English Dictionary cited the first known usage in the English language to a Scottish newspaper: the People's Journal in 1848: "A war among the great powers is now necessarily a world-war." The term "world war" had been used in 1850 by Karl Marx and his associate, Friedrich Engels, in The Class Struggles in France. Rasmus B. Anderson in 1889 described an episode in Teutonic mythology as a “world war” (Swedish: världskrig), justifying this description by a line in an Old Norse epic poem, "Völuspá: folcvig fyrst i heimi" ("The first great war in the world".) German writer August Wilhelm Otto Niemann had used the term "world war" in the title of his anti-British novel, Der Weltkrieg: Deutsche Träume (The World War: German Dreams) in 1904, published in English as The Coming Conquest of England.
In English, the term "First World War" had been used by Charles à Court Repington, as a title for his memoirs (published in 1920); he had noted his discussion on the matter with a Major Johnstone of Harvard University in his diary entry of September 10, 1918.
The term "World War I" was coined by Time magazine on page 28b of its June 12, 1939 issue. In the same article, on page 32, the term "World War II" was first used speculatively to describe the upcoming war. The first use for the actual war came in its issue of September 11, 1939. One week earlier, on September 4, the day after France and the United Kingdom declared war on Germany, the Danish newspaper Kristeligt Dagblad used the term on its front page, saying "The Second World War broke out yesterday at 11 a.m."
The Wiki section on Other global conflicts lists wars which, while global, have not been given the term "world war" (especially World War in capitals, which Merriam-Webster declares to be reserved for WWI and WWII, thus far in history anyway). Why were they not called World War X, Y or Z? Because no one did call them that. And no one does. Though anyone could. It is a socio-political term, not an objective or empirical one. It is a coined phrase. Those who coined it get to shape or influence how it is used. Like D-Day ... every operation prior to 6 June 1944 had a D-Day (day of commencing operations) and an H-Hour (starting hour). After June 6th, the term became synonymous with Operation Overlord and no one thinks of it in any other manner now.
In reading through the definitions and accepted use of the term, the consensus seems to be that there were global conflicts transpiring before 1 September 1939, but the tipping point to qualify it as a World War (among those who define or shape language or terminology, at least in a popular cultural sense) came when war was declared by several additional nations (and their respective world-spanning empires, thanks sempaiscuba) when Germany invaded Poland. Those who coined the phrase applied it to that war which started between Germany and Poland and the UK and France and their global empires when Germany invaded Poland 1 September 1939. And it stuck. And it became accepted as such. It can also be rejected as such.
EDIT: This Question has generated a variety of both Answers and Comments which express many differing opinions (granted, many backed with reasons, but still opinions), as to when the war started, who was involved at what point, how many were involved and when, at what time did the various regional conflicts cease being separate wars and become absorbed into the "world" war, etc. These are all being vigorously presented and defended and the traffic generated for this site is a good thing. I am not advocating closing this Question from the standpoint that it requires opinion-based answers. I think this kind of post and the ensuing discussion is healthy for History:SE.
What I am suggesting though is that this Question can be addressed from a marginally historic perspective, and that is by examining the historical use of the term World War II, when it came into use and by whom, what are its roots in previous usage for other global conflicts (etc.) - hence why I chose to post this Answer from that standpoint. I think this approach can keep the Question grounded in terms that are not primarily opinion-based (even though use of the term may well be challenged as opinion- or politically-based) in hopes that by doing so this Question can remain open for years to come with many more great Answers and Comments added (which at some future date others may refer back to for historical perspective by the way) without fear of having this closed for being opinion-based.
Ok... down off my soap box now. (I may remove this Edit later, just adding it here for visibility and consideration for a while.) Cheers to all! :-)
edited 10 hours ago
answered yesterday
Kerry L
2,678743
2,678743
On September 1, 1939, Japan, China, Germany, and Poland were belligerents in two separate conflicts. That isn't a world war by the Wikipedia definition. It's iffy if September 3, 1939 qualifies, given the neutrality of the US, the USSR, and Italy.
– David Thornley
yesterday
1
@DavidThornley there is no objective criteria to the use of the term with regards to any definition (even in Wiki's own definition), but rather a consensus among sources using the term for any given purpose (political being the most obvious, not historical). When did the term come into use, and upon what world events was that usage based. Those are the only measures that can reasonably be applied. The exact number of belligerents is not a hard and fast figure, rather the character or nature of the conflict seem more prominent to the language arbiters in this case.
– Kerry L
yesterday
My intention is not to propose a start date. I'm pointing out that the period of September 1 through September 2 in 1939 does not constitute a world war by the standards given. Indeed, in your comment, you're talking about common usage (and September 1, 1939 is a commonly stated start date) instead of the criteria.
– David Thornley
9 hours ago
1
@DavidThornley it's a fuzzy issue. Your observations are valid, and so are many others here.
– Kerry L
9 hours ago
add a comment |
On September 1, 1939, Japan, China, Germany, and Poland were belligerents in two separate conflicts. That isn't a world war by the Wikipedia definition. It's iffy if September 3, 1939 qualifies, given the neutrality of the US, the USSR, and Italy.
– David Thornley
yesterday
1
@DavidThornley there is no objective criteria to the use of the term with regards to any definition (even in Wiki's own definition), but rather a consensus among sources using the term for any given purpose (political being the most obvious, not historical). When did the term come into use, and upon what world events was that usage based. Those are the only measures that can reasonably be applied. The exact number of belligerents is not a hard and fast figure, rather the character or nature of the conflict seem more prominent to the language arbiters in this case.
– Kerry L
yesterday
My intention is not to propose a start date. I'm pointing out that the period of September 1 through September 2 in 1939 does not constitute a world war by the standards given. Indeed, in your comment, you're talking about common usage (and September 1, 1939 is a commonly stated start date) instead of the criteria.
– David Thornley
9 hours ago
1
@DavidThornley it's a fuzzy issue. Your observations are valid, and so are many others here.
– Kerry L
9 hours ago
On September 1, 1939, Japan, China, Germany, and Poland were belligerents in two separate conflicts. That isn't a world war by the Wikipedia definition. It's iffy if September 3, 1939 qualifies, given the neutrality of the US, the USSR, and Italy.
– David Thornley
yesterday
On September 1, 1939, Japan, China, Germany, and Poland were belligerents in two separate conflicts. That isn't a world war by the Wikipedia definition. It's iffy if September 3, 1939 qualifies, given the neutrality of the US, the USSR, and Italy.
– David Thornley
yesterday
1
1
@DavidThornley there is no objective criteria to the use of the term with regards to any definition (even in Wiki's own definition), but rather a consensus among sources using the term for any given purpose (political being the most obvious, not historical). When did the term come into use, and upon what world events was that usage based. Those are the only measures that can reasonably be applied. The exact number of belligerents is not a hard and fast figure, rather the character or nature of the conflict seem more prominent to the language arbiters in this case.
– Kerry L
yesterday
@DavidThornley there is no objective criteria to the use of the term with regards to any definition (even in Wiki's own definition), but rather a consensus among sources using the term for any given purpose (political being the most obvious, not historical). When did the term come into use, and upon what world events was that usage based. Those are the only measures that can reasonably be applied. The exact number of belligerents is not a hard and fast figure, rather the character or nature of the conflict seem more prominent to the language arbiters in this case.
– Kerry L
yesterday
My intention is not to propose a start date. I'm pointing out that the period of September 1 through September 2 in 1939 does not constitute a world war by the standards given. Indeed, in your comment, you're talking about common usage (and September 1, 1939 is a commonly stated start date) instead of the criteria.
– David Thornley
9 hours ago
My intention is not to propose a start date. I'm pointing out that the period of September 1 through September 2 in 1939 does not constitute a world war by the standards given. Indeed, in your comment, you're talking about common usage (and September 1, 1939 is a commonly stated start date) instead of the criteria.
– David Thornley
9 hours ago
1
1
@DavidThornley it's a fuzzy issue. Your observations are valid, and so are many others here.
– Kerry L
9 hours ago
@DavidThornley it's a fuzzy issue. Your observations are valid, and so are many others here.
– Kerry L
9 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
8
down vote
As to why en.wikipedia lists particular start dates, I commend to you en.wikipedia’s arcane consensus policies, the article’s page history and talk page history. For why anglophone editors from the global north construe the texts they read to support their edit warring, I supply the following:
Popular conceptions of history reflect myth-making, national imaginations, language barriers and politics.
As the phrase “world war two” isn’t a technical or theoretical concept in history—compare to “imperialist wars” which is baggage laden—we should look to the reasons in popular history.
Firstly, the world system has concentrated imperialist power in “the global north.” Japan has a notorious unwillingness to tolerate public discourse on its war with China, this being viewed as a political issue related to which class ought to control the economy.
That leaves European powers and the anglophone settler states. These cultures are heavily Eurocentric. Britain and France in particular have large associated language communities—many of which are former colonies pulled into 1939—which emphasise 1939. Polish remembrance is obvious. German culture was specifically disciplined for 1939. Other states: Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Belgium, Yugoslavia, Greece; were pulled into the 1939 war. The former Soviet Union memorialised anti Hitlerism and so also engaged in 1939 myth making.
China seems to be engaged in an exceptionalism connected to anti-Japanese anti-imperialism, and so doesn’t need “WWII” as a myth: the Sino-Japanese wars as the birth of the PRC suffices without needing a grand narrative of World War.
The US is slightly different, with a strong pull to 1941 for local reasons.
Centring social myth on 1939 reinforces the centrality of the global north’s Eurocentric myths, as essentially “the world.” The world naturally being France, Germany, the UK, their colonies and European victims. Given the decline of national imperialisms whose metropoles were European, 1945-1980, there are strong “dying empire” reasons to memorialise WWII on European terms: consider the UK’s war myths and imperial “decline.” Correspondingly the Great Patriotic War as an antifascist war in the Soviet Union was essential myth making, and the idea of a “popular front” against fascism harkens to 1939 for WWII. (The Soviet Union being transnational imperialism.)
Historians are unlikely to set a flag in the ground over sloppy nationalist posturing on a term which isn’t relevant. For long duration histories of world systems, that a period of war between metropole states existed 1914-1945 matters. At closer focuses who exactly was at war with whom matters more than a label.
It is a popular term whose meaning is political and no answer particularly interests historians. In fact, comparing why people support answers is more interesting than the idea of any particular start date.
2
I agree with your second-to-last paragraph. As another example, while history classes in Italy still try to teach about the first, the second and the third Independence War, Italians generally just talk about "Risorgimento", without detailing any more - and that's just a little over 150 years ago. In Italy, WWI was actually called "the fourth Independece War" for a while, before the concept of "two world wars" became dominant.
– Simone
yesterday
Your last sentence / paragraph is in my view the crux of the matter. Agree.
– Kerry L
yesterday
Since at least one prominent American is on record as saying "History of bunk," why should the rest of the world care about their own private version of it?
– alephzero
yesterday
Why emulate the fool their folly?
– Samuel Russell
yesterday
Actually, for the whole of postwar Soviet Union, ( as well as for modern Russia as far as I am aware) it is taught that the WW2 started on June 21,1941 and ended on May 9, 1945.
– Gnudiff
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
8
down vote
As to why en.wikipedia lists particular start dates, I commend to you en.wikipedia’s arcane consensus policies, the article’s page history and talk page history. For why anglophone editors from the global north construe the texts they read to support their edit warring, I supply the following:
Popular conceptions of history reflect myth-making, national imaginations, language barriers and politics.
As the phrase “world war two” isn’t a technical or theoretical concept in history—compare to “imperialist wars” which is baggage laden—we should look to the reasons in popular history.
Firstly, the world system has concentrated imperialist power in “the global north.” Japan has a notorious unwillingness to tolerate public discourse on its war with China, this being viewed as a political issue related to which class ought to control the economy.
That leaves European powers and the anglophone settler states. These cultures are heavily Eurocentric. Britain and France in particular have large associated language communities—many of which are former colonies pulled into 1939—which emphasise 1939. Polish remembrance is obvious. German culture was specifically disciplined for 1939. Other states: Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Belgium, Yugoslavia, Greece; were pulled into the 1939 war. The former Soviet Union memorialised anti Hitlerism and so also engaged in 1939 myth making.
China seems to be engaged in an exceptionalism connected to anti-Japanese anti-imperialism, and so doesn’t need “WWII” as a myth: the Sino-Japanese wars as the birth of the PRC suffices without needing a grand narrative of World War.
The US is slightly different, with a strong pull to 1941 for local reasons.
Centring social myth on 1939 reinforces the centrality of the global north’s Eurocentric myths, as essentially “the world.” The world naturally being France, Germany, the UK, their colonies and European victims. Given the decline of national imperialisms whose metropoles were European, 1945-1980, there are strong “dying empire” reasons to memorialise WWII on European terms: consider the UK’s war myths and imperial “decline.” Correspondingly the Great Patriotic War as an antifascist war in the Soviet Union was essential myth making, and the idea of a “popular front” against fascism harkens to 1939 for WWII. (The Soviet Union being transnational imperialism.)
Historians are unlikely to set a flag in the ground over sloppy nationalist posturing on a term which isn’t relevant. For long duration histories of world systems, that a period of war between metropole states existed 1914-1945 matters. At closer focuses who exactly was at war with whom matters more than a label.
It is a popular term whose meaning is political and no answer particularly interests historians. In fact, comparing why people support answers is more interesting than the idea of any particular start date.
2
I agree with your second-to-last paragraph. As another example, while history classes in Italy still try to teach about the first, the second and the third Independence War, Italians generally just talk about "Risorgimento", without detailing any more - and that's just a little over 150 years ago. In Italy, WWI was actually called "the fourth Independece War" for a while, before the concept of "two world wars" became dominant.
– Simone
yesterday
Your last sentence / paragraph is in my view the crux of the matter. Agree.
– Kerry L
yesterday
Since at least one prominent American is on record as saying "History of bunk," why should the rest of the world care about their own private version of it?
– alephzero
yesterday
Why emulate the fool their folly?
– Samuel Russell
yesterday
Actually, for the whole of postwar Soviet Union, ( as well as for modern Russia as far as I am aware) it is taught that the WW2 started on June 21,1941 and ended on May 9, 1945.
– Gnudiff
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
8
down vote
up vote
8
down vote
As to why en.wikipedia lists particular start dates, I commend to you en.wikipedia’s arcane consensus policies, the article’s page history and talk page history. For why anglophone editors from the global north construe the texts they read to support their edit warring, I supply the following:
Popular conceptions of history reflect myth-making, national imaginations, language barriers and politics.
As the phrase “world war two” isn’t a technical or theoretical concept in history—compare to “imperialist wars” which is baggage laden—we should look to the reasons in popular history.
Firstly, the world system has concentrated imperialist power in “the global north.” Japan has a notorious unwillingness to tolerate public discourse on its war with China, this being viewed as a political issue related to which class ought to control the economy.
That leaves European powers and the anglophone settler states. These cultures are heavily Eurocentric. Britain and France in particular have large associated language communities—many of which are former colonies pulled into 1939—which emphasise 1939. Polish remembrance is obvious. German culture was specifically disciplined for 1939. Other states: Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Belgium, Yugoslavia, Greece; were pulled into the 1939 war. The former Soviet Union memorialised anti Hitlerism and so also engaged in 1939 myth making.
China seems to be engaged in an exceptionalism connected to anti-Japanese anti-imperialism, and so doesn’t need “WWII” as a myth: the Sino-Japanese wars as the birth of the PRC suffices without needing a grand narrative of World War.
The US is slightly different, with a strong pull to 1941 for local reasons.
Centring social myth on 1939 reinforces the centrality of the global north’s Eurocentric myths, as essentially “the world.” The world naturally being France, Germany, the UK, their colonies and European victims. Given the decline of national imperialisms whose metropoles were European, 1945-1980, there are strong “dying empire” reasons to memorialise WWII on European terms: consider the UK’s war myths and imperial “decline.” Correspondingly the Great Patriotic War as an antifascist war in the Soviet Union was essential myth making, and the idea of a “popular front” against fascism harkens to 1939 for WWII. (The Soviet Union being transnational imperialism.)
Historians are unlikely to set a flag in the ground over sloppy nationalist posturing on a term which isn’t relevant. For long duration histories of world systems, that a period of war between metropole states existed 1914-1945 matters. At closer focuses who exactly was at war with whom matters more than a label.
It is a popular term whose meaning is political and no answer particularly interests historians. In fact, comparing why people support answers is more interesting than the idea of any particular start date.
As to why en.wikipedia lists particular start dates, I commend to you en.wikipedia’s arcane consensus policies, the article’s page history and talk page history. For why anglophone editors from the global north construe the texts they read to support their edit warring, I supply the following:
Popular conceptions of history reflect myth-making, national imaginations, language barriers and politics.
As the phrase “world war two” isn’t a technical or theoretical concept in history—compare to “imperialist wars” which is baggage laden—we should look to the reasons in popular history.
Firstly, the world system has concentrated imperialist power in “the global north.” Japan has a notorious unwillingness to tolerate public discourse on its war with China, this being viewed as a political issue related to which class ought to control the economy.
That leaves European powers and the anglophone settler states. These cultures are heavily Eurocentric. Britain and France in particular have large associated language communities—many of which are former colonies pulled into 1939—which emphasise 1939. Polish remembrance is obvious. German culture was specifically disciplined for 1939. Other states: Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Belgium, Yugoslavia, Greece; were pulled into the 1939 war. The former Soviet Union memorialised anti Hitlerism and so also engaged in 1939 myth making.
China seems to be engaged in an exceptionalism connected to anti-Japanese anti-imperialism, and so doesn’t need “WWII” as a myth: the Sino-Japanese wars as the birth of the PRC suffices without needing a grand narrative of World War.
The US is slightly different, with a strong pull to 1941 for local reasons.
Centring social myth on 1939 reinforces the centrality of the global north’s Eurocentric myths, as essentially “the world.” The world naturally being France, Germany, the UK, their colonies and European victims. Given the decline of national imperialisms whose metropoles were European, 1945-1980, there are strong “dying empire” reasons to memorialise WWII on European terms: consider the UK’s war myths and imperial “decline.” Correspondingly the Great Patriotic War as an antifascist war in the Soviet Union was essential myth making, and the idea of a “popular front” against fascism harkens to 1939 for WWII. (The Soviet Union being transnational imperialism.)
Historians are unlikely to set a flag in the ground over sloppy nationalist posturing on a term which isn’t relevant. For long duration histories of world systems, that a period of war between metropole states existed 1914-1945 matters. At closer focuses who exactly was at war with whom matters more than a label.
It is a popular term whose meaning is political and no answer particularly interests historians. In fact, comparing why people support answers is more interesting than the idea of any particular start date.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
Samuel Russell
9,45733072
9,45733072
2
I agree with your second-to-last paragraph. As another example, while history classes in Italy still try to teach about the first, the second and the third Independence War, Italians generally just talk about "Risorgimento", without detailing any more - and that's just a little over 150 years ago. In Italy, WWI was actually called "the fourth Independece War" for a while, before the concept of "two world wars" became dominant.
– Simone
yesterday
Your last sentence / paragraph is in my view the crux of the matter. Agree.
– Kerry L
yesterday
Since at least one prominent American is on record as saying "History of bunk," why should the rest of the world care about their own private version of it?
– alephzero
yesterday
Why emulate the fool their folly?
– Samuel Russell
yesterday
Actually, for the whole of postwar Soviet Union, ( as well as for modern Russia as far as I am aware) it is taught that the WW2 started on June 21,1941 and ended on May 9, 1945.
– Gnudiff
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
2
I agree with your second-to-last paragraph. As another example, while history classes in Italy still try to teach about the first, the second and the third Independence War, Italians generally just talk about "Risorgimento", without detailing any more - and that's just a little over 150 years ago. In Italy, WWI was actually called "the fourth Independece War" for a while, before the concept of "two world wars" became dominant.
– Simone
yesterday
Your last sentence / paragraph is in my view the crux of the matter. Agree.
– Kerry L
yesterday
Since at least one prominent American is on record as saying "History of bunk," why should the rest of the world care about their own private version of it?
– alephzero
yesterday
Why emulate the fool their folly?
– Samuel Russell
yesterday
Actually, for the whole of postwar Soviet Union, ( as well as for modern Russia as far as I am aware) it is taught that the WW2 started on June 21,1941 and ended on May 9, 1945.
– Gnudiff
yesterday
2
2
I agree with your second-to-last paragraph. As another example, while history classes in Italy still try to teach about the first, the second and the third Independence War, Italians generally just talk about "Risorgimento", without detailing any more - and that's just a little over 150 years ago. In Italy, WWI was actually called "the fourth Independece War" for a while, before the concept of "two world wars" became dominant.
– Simone
yesterday
I agree with your second-to-last paragraph. As another example, while history classes in Italy still try to teach about the first, the second and the third Independence War, Italians generally just talk about "Risorgimento", without detailing any more - and that's just a little over 150 years ago. In Italy, WWI was actually called "the fourth Independece War" for a while, before the concept of "two world wars" became dominant.
– Simone
yesterday
Your last sentence / paragraph is in my view the crux of the matter. Agree.
– Kerry L
yesterday
Your last sentence / paragraph is in my view the crux of the matter. Agree.
– Kerry L
yesterday
Since at least one prominent American is on record as saying "History of bunk," why should the rest of the world care about their own private version of it?
– alephzero
yesterday
Since at least one prominent American is on record as saying "History of bunk," why should the rest of the world care about their own private version of it?
– alephzero
yesterday
Why emulate the fool their folly?
– Samuel Russell
yesterday
Why emulate the fool their folly?
– Samuel Russell
yesterday
Actually, for the whole of postwar Soviet Union, ( as well as for modern Russia as far as I am aware) it is taught that the WW2 started on June 21,1941 and ended on May 9, 1945.
– Gnudiff
yesterday
Actually, for the whole of postwar Soviet Union, ( as well as for modern Russia as far as I am aware) it is taught that the WW2 started on June 21,1941 and ended on May 9, 1945.
– Gnudiff
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
5
down vote
As the World War II Article says:
Japan, which aimed to dominate Asia and the Pacific, was at war with China by 1937[5][b]—though neither side had declared war on the other. World war is generally said to have begun on 1 September 1939,[6] with the invasion of Poland by Germany and subsequent declarations on Germany by France and the United Kingdom.
So, formal declarations occurred at the later date, and gathered more directly attacking sides, enough to call it a "World War", where before it was China + Soviets + USA vs. Japan. Although, from @chepner's comment, that alliance did not involve formal war declarations:
The US did not declare war on anyone until December 1941. The USSR didn't declare war on Japan until August 1945.
From Second Sino-Japanese War, as of the 09:16, 16 October 2018 DimensionQualm revision... At the start of the second paragraph, it says the following:
China fought Japan with aid from the Soviet Union and the United States.
Although, even though that sentence is placed early in the page, it may be talking about events that occurred after the war merged with World War II.
2
The US did not declare war on anyone until December 1941. The USSR didn't declare war on Japan until August 1945.
– chepner
yesterday
@chepner - Right. Gonna update that to clarify...
– Malandy
yesterday
Although the United States did not formally declare war until it came under attack, the President declared a state of “national emergency” on September 8, 1939. This was far from the total war that was to come, but it did involve US and German ships firing on each other. And the United States has often fought wars without formally declaring them.
– Davislor
yesterday
@Davislor - I don't know how you want me to integrate that, so go ahead and edit it in, and we'll let the community decide.
– Malandy
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
5
down vote
As the World War II Article says:
Japan, which aimed to dominate Asia and the Pacific, was at war with China by 1937[5][b]—though neither side had declared war on the other. World war is generally said to have begun on 1 September 1939,[6] with the invasion of Poland by Germany and subsequent declarations on Germany by France and the United Kingdom.
So, formal declarations occurred at the later date, and gathered more directly attacking sides, enough to call it a "World War", where before it was China + Soviets + USA vs. Japan. Although, from @chepner's comment, that alliance did not involve formal war declarations:
The US did not declare war on anyone until December 1941. The USSR didn't declare war on Japan until August 1945.
From Second Sino-Japanese War, as of the 09:16, 16 October 2018 DimensionQualm revision... At the start of the second paragraph, it says the following:
China fought Japan with aid from the Soviet Union and the United States.
Although, even though that sentence is placed early in the page, it may be talking about events that occurred after the war merged with World War II.
2
The US did not declare war on anyone until December 1941. The USSR didn't declare war on Japan until August 1945.
– chepner
yesterday
@chepner - Right. Gonna update that to clarify...
– Malandy
yesterday
Although the United States did not formally declare war until it came under attack, the President declared a state of “national emergency” on September 8, 1939. This was far from the total war that was to come, but it did involve US and German ships firing on each other. And the United States has often fought wars without formally declaring them.
– Davislor
yesterday
@Davislor - I don't know how you want me to integrate that, so go ahead and edit it in, and we'll let the community decide.
– Malandy
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
5
down vote
up vote
5
down vote
As the World War II Article says:
Japan, which aimed to dominate Asia and the Pacific, was at war with China by 1937[5][b]—though neither side had declared war on the other. World war is generally said to have begun on 1 September 1939,[6] with the invasion of Poland by Germany and subsequent declarations on Germany by France and the United Kingdom.
So, formal declarations occurred at the later date, and gathered more directly attacking sides, enough to call it a "World War", where before it was China + Soviets + USA vs. Japan. Although, from @chepner's comment, that alliance did not involve formal war declarations:
The US did not declare war on anyone until December 1941. The USSR didn't declare war on Japan until August 1945.
From Second Sino-Japanese War, as of the 09:16, 16 October 2018 DimensionQualm revision... At the start of the second paragraph, it says the following:
China fought Japan with aid from the Soviet Union and the United States.
Although, even though that sentence is placed early in the page, it may be talking about events that occurred after the war merged with World War II.
As the World War II Article says:
Japan, which aimed to dominate Asia and the Pacific, was at war with China by 1937[5][b]—though neither side had declared war on the other. World war is generally said to have begun on 1 September 1939,[6] with the invasion of Poland by Germany and subsequent declarations on Germany by France and the United Kingdom.
So, formal declarations occurred at the later date, and gathered more directly attacking sides, enough to call it a "World War", where before it was China + Soviets + USA vs. Japan. Although, from @chepner's comment, that alliance did not involve formal war declarations:
The US did not declare war on anyone until December 1941. The USSR didn't declare war on Japan until August 1945.
From Second Sino-Japanese War, as of the 09:16, 16 October 2018 DimensionQualm revision... At the start of the second paragraph, it says the following:
China fought Japan with aid from the Soviet Union and the United States.
Although, even though that sentence is placed early in the page, it may be talking about events that occurred after the war merged with World War II.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
Malandy
694617
694617
2
The US did not declare war on anyone until December 1941. The USSR didn't declare war on Japan until August 1945.
– chepner
yesterday
@chepner - Right. Gonna update that to clarify...
– Malandy
yesterday
Although the United States did not formally declare war until it came under attack, the President declared a state of “national emergency” on September 8, 1939. This was far from the total war that was to come, but it did involve US and German ships firing on each other. And the United States has often fought wars without formally declaring them.
– Davislor
yesterday
@Davislor - I don't know how you want me to integrate that, so go ahead and edit it in, and we'll let the community decide.
– Malandy
yesterday
add a comment |
2
The US did not declare war on anyone until December 1941. The USSR didn't declare war on Japan until August 1945.
– chepner
yesterday
@chepner - Right. Gonna update that to clarify...
– Malandy
yesterday
Although the United States did not formally declare war until it came under attack, the President declared a state of “national emergency” on September 8, 1939. This was far from the total war that was to come, but it did involve US and German ships firing on each other. And the United States has often fought wars without formally declaring them.
– Davislor
yesterday
@Davislor - I don't know how you want me to integrate that, so go ahead and edit it in, and we'll let the community decide.
– Malandy
yesterday
2
2
The US did not declare war on anyone until December 1941. The USSR didn't declare war on Japan until August 1945.
– chepner
yesterday
The US did not declare war on anyone until December 1941. The USSR didn't declare war on Japan until August 1945.
– chepner
yesterday
@chepner - Right. Gonna update that to clarify...
– Malandy
yesterday
@chepner - Right. Gonna update that to clarify...
– Malandy
yesterday
Although the United States did not formally declare war until it came under attack, the President declared a state of “national emergency” on September 8, 1939. This was far from the total war that was to come, but it did involve US and German ships firing on each other. And the United States has often fought wars without formally declaring them.
– Davislor
yesterday
Although the United States did not formally declare war until it came under attack, the President declared a state of “national emergency” on September 8, 1939. This was far from the total war that was to come, but it did involve US and German ships firing on each other. And the United States has often fought wars without formally declaring them.
– Davislor
yesterday
@Davislor - I don't know how you want me to integrate that, so go ahead and edit it in, and we'll let the community decide.
– Malandy
yesterday
@Davislor - I don't know how you want me to integrate that, so go ahead and edit it in, and we'll let the community decide.
– Malandy
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
Isn't that just a matter of perspective?
I wonder what the Russian text books say is the start date?
There are so many good candidates!
- September 1st 1939: Germany invaded Poland
- September 17th 1939: Russia invaded Poland in partnership with Germany
- November 30th 1939: Russia invaded Finland (a disastrous war which helped convince Germany that the Russian army sucked)?
- June 22nd 1941: the day Germany invaded Russia
For Germany, it was definitely September 1st 1939.
For Italy, the war probably began on October 3rd 1935 when they invaded Ethiopia.
For America, the war began December 7th 1941.
For Britain (and France), the war began September 3rd 1939.
For China, July 7th 1937.
For Japan, it is less clear: they executed a series of creeping expansion all through the 1900s, until it all blew up in their faces.
I think what I am trying to say is, dates really aren't as important as high school history teachers make them out to be. Yes, you need to know the dates, but more importantly, we must understand how the EVENTS that took place on those dates affected each other and the world we all live in today.
Because, like it or not, all of us are living in the shadows of events that took place hundreds of years ago. I would say our politics, our culture, even our lives are shaped by those events.
New contributor
1
Fun fact: you can put down September 11, 1941 as the date the US entered the war, as Roosevelt told the USN to wage war in the North Atlantic. That war remained undeclared for months. Yet another date to consider.
– David Thornley
yesterday
1
Another fun fact: a Russian text book would likely have no mention of something called World War Two, but rather The Great Patriotic War.
– Kerry L
yesterday
3
@KerryL While my childhood's Soviet textbooks used mostly GPW, the term was used interchangeably with WW2 both in them and in lots of other places -- forcing the unspecified implication that they were the same, even though they weren't. Until 1991, we were taught that WW2 started in June 22,1941 and ended on May 9, 1945 (Victory day celebration in the USSR), despite the fact that it was "only" GPW-part of WW2. Granted, I was not a history addict, so I might have missed, if the difference was explained somewhere, but if I was thinking GPW=WW2, I was among the majority.
– Gnudiff
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
Isn't that just a matter of perspective?
I wonder what the Russian text books say is the start date?
There are so many good candidates!
- September 1st 1939: Germany invaded Poland
- September 17th 1939: Russia invaded Poland in partnership with Germany
- November 30th 1939: Russia invaded Finland (a disastrous war which helped convince Germany that the Russian army sucked)?
- June 22nd 1941: the day Germany invaded Russia
For Germany, it was definitely September 1st 1939.
For Italy, the war probably began on October 3rd 1935 when they invaded Ethiopia.
For America, the war began December 7th 1941.
For Britain (and France), the war began September 3rd 1939.
For China, July 7th 1937.
For Japan, it is less clear: they executed a series of creeping expansion all through the 1900s, until it all blew up in their faces.
I think what I am trying to say is, dates really aren't as important as high school history teachers make them out to be. Yes, you need to know the dates, but more importantly, we must understand how the EVENTS that took place on those dates affected each other and the world we all live in today.
Because, like it or not, all of us are living in the shadows of events that took place hundreds of years ago. I would say our politics, our culture, even our lives are shaped by those events.
New contributor
1
Fun fact: you can put down September 11, 1941 as the date the US entered the war, as Roosevelt told the USN to wage war in the North Atlantic. That war remained undeclared for months. Yet another date to consider.
– David Thornley
yesterday
1
Another fun fact: a Russian text book would likely have no mention of something called World War Two, but rather The Great Patriotic War.
– Kerry L
yesterday
3
@KerryL While my childhood's Soviet textbooks used mostly GPW, the term was used interchangeably with WW2 both in them and in lots of other places -- forcing the unspecified implication that they were the same, even though they weren't. Until 1991, we were taught that WW2 started in June 22,1941 and ended on May 9, 1945 (Victory day celebration in the USSR), despite the fact that it was "only" GPW-part of WW2. Granted, I was not a history addict, so I might have missed, if the difference was explained somewhere, but if I was thinking GPW=WW2, I was among the majority.
– Gnudiff
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
Isn't that just a matter of perspective?
I wonder what the Russian text books say is the start date?
There are so many good candidates!
- September 1st 1939: Germany invaded Poland
- September 17th 1939: Russia invaded Poland in partnership with Germany
- November 30th 1939: Russia invaded Finland (a disastrous war which helped convince Germany that the Russian army sucked)?
- June 22nd 1941: the day Germany invaded Russia
For Germany, it was definitely September 1st 1939.
For Italy, the war probably began on October 3rd 1935 when they invaded Ethiopia.
For America, the war began December 7th 1941.
For Britain (and France), the war began September 3rd 1939.
For China, July 7th 1937.
For Japan, it is less clear: they executed a series of creeping expansion all through the 1900s, until it all blew up in their faces.
I think what I am trying to say is, dates really aren't as important as high school history teachers make them out to be. Yes, you need to know the dates, but more importantly, we must understand how the EVENTS that took place on those dates affected each other and the world we all live in today.
Because, like it or not, all of us are living in the shadows of events that took place hundreds of years ago. I would say our politics, our culture, even our lives are shaped by those events.
New contributor
Isn't that just a matter of perspective?
I wonder what the Russian text books say is the start date?
There are so many good candidates!
- September 1st 1939: Germany invaded Poland
- September 17th 1939: Russia invaded Poland in partnership with Germany
- November 30th 1939: Russia invaded Finland (a disastrous war which helped convince Germany that the Russian army sucked)?
- June 22nd 1941: the day Germany invaded Russia
For Germany, it was definitely September 1st 1939.
For Italy, the war probably began on October 3rd 1935 when they invaded Ethiopia.
For America, the war began December 7th 1941.
For Britain (and France), the war began September 3rd 1939.
For China, July 7th 1937.
For Japan, it is less clear: they executed a series of creeping expansion all through the 1900s, until it all blew up in their faces.
I think what I am trying to say is, dates really aren't as important as high school history teachers make them out to be. Yes, you need to know the dates, but more importantly, we must understand how the EVENTS that took place on those dates affected each other and the world we all live in today.
Because, like it or not, all of us are living in the shadows of events that took place hundreds of years ago. I would say our politics, our culture, even our lives are shaped by those events.
New contributor
edited 14 hours ago
Lars Bosteen
33.5k8163222
33.5k8163222
New contributor
answered yesterday
sofa general
812
812
New contributor
New contributor
1
Fun fact: you can put down September 11, 1941 as the date the US entered the war, as Roosevelt told the USN to wage war in the North Atlantic. That war remained undeclared for months. Yet another date to consider.
– David Thornley
yesterday
1
Another fun fact: a Russian text book would likely have no mention of something called World War Two, but rather The Great Patriotic War.
– Kerry L
yesterday
3
@KerryL While my childhood's Soviet textbooks used mostly GPW, the term was used interchangeably with WW2 both in them and in lots of other places -- forcing the unspecified implication that they were the same, even though they weren't. Until 1991, we were taught that WW2 started in June 22,1941 and ended on May 9, 1945 (Victory day celebration in the USSR), despite the fact that it was "only" GPW-part of WW2. Granted, I was not a history addict, so I might have missed, if the difference was explained somewhere, but if I was thinking GPW=WW2, I was among the majority.
– Gnudiff
yesterday
add a comment |
1
Fun fact: you can put down September 11, 1941 as the date the US entered the war, as Roosevelt told the USN to wage war in the North Atlantic. That war remained undeclared for months. Yet another date to consider.
– David Thornley
yesterday
1
Another fun fact: a Russian text book would likely have no mention of something called World War Two, but rather The Great Patriotic War.
– Kerry L
yesterday
3
@KerryL While my childhood's Soviet textbooks used mostly GPW, the term was used interchangeably with WW2 both in them and in lots of other places -- forcing the unspecified implication that they were the same, even though they weren't. Until 1991, we were taught that WW2 started in June 22,1941 and ended on May 9, 1945 (Victory day celebration in the USSR), despite the fact that it was "only" GPW-part of WW2. Granted, I was not a history addict, so I might have missed, if the difference was explained somewhere, but if I was thinking GPW=WW2, I was among the majority.
– Gnudiff
yesterday
1
1
Fun fact: you can put down September 11, 1941 as the date the US entered the war, as Roosevelt told the USN to wage war in the North Atlantic. That war remained undeclared for months. Yet another date to consider.
– David Thornley
yesterday
Fun fact: you can put down September 11, 1941 as the date the US entered the war, as Roosevelt told the USN to wage war in the North Atlantic. That war remained undeclared for months. Yet another date to consider.
– David Thornley
yesterday
1
1
Another fun fact: a Russian text book would likely have no mention of something called World War Two, but rather The Great Patriotic War.
– Kerry L
yesterday
Another fun fact: a Russian text book would likely have no mention of something called World War Two, but rather The Great Patriotic War.
– Kerry L
yesterday
3
3
@KerryL While my childhood's Soviet textbooks used mostly GPW, the term was used interchangeably with WW2 both in them and in lots of other places -- forcing the unspecified implication that they were the same, even though they weren't. Until 1991, we were taught that WW2 started in June 22,1941 and ended on May 9, 1945 (Victory day celebration in the USSR), despite the fact that it was "only" GPW-part of WW2. Granted, I was not a history addict, so I might have missed, if the difference was explained somewhere, but if I was thinking GPW=WW2, I was among the majority.
– Gnudiff
yesterday
@KerryL While my childhood's Soviet textbooks used mostly GPW, the term was used interchangeably with WW2 both in them and in lots of other places -- forcing the unspecified implication that they were the same, even though they weren't. Until 1991, we were taught that WW2 started in June 22,1941 and ended on May 9, 1945 (Victory day celebration in the USSR), despite the fact that it was "only" GPW-part of WW2. Granted, I was not a history addict, so I might have missed, if the difference was explained somewhere, but if I was thinking GPW=WW2, I was among the majority.
– Gnudiff
yesterday
add a comment |
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38
I remember seeing an American textbook in the 1970s which gave the dates of WW2 as 7 December 1941 to 2 September 1945! I guess it's also sometimes a matter of perspective.
– sempaiscuba♦
yesterday
5
Often, these things are explained by discussions on the talk page of an article, in this case the extensive discussions are archived. (I just searched for the word "start" on the talk page, which took me almost immediately to the archive link.)
– T.J. Crowder
yesterday
11
Because there was no reaction for Japan vs China, so it was considered a war between two countries.
– stackzebra
yesterday
13
@jamesqf "Why does Wikipedia...?" is answerable, but the only correct answer, "because that's what the last guy who edited the page thought was right" isn't very satisfying!
– alephzero
yesterday
13
For fun, track the huge debate on this subject conducted on the Wikipedia talk pages over the course of many years. (@alephzero - it's also not 'the last guy who edited the page' but a consensus formed and then enforced by the community)
– DJClayworth
yesterday