Can Beehive detect a Snowden-like actor?









up vote
51
down vote

favorite
8












In a seminar, one of the Authors of Beehive: Large-Scale Log Analysis for Detecting Suspicious Activity in Enterprise Networks said that this system can prevent actions like Snowden did.



From their articles' conclusions;




Beehive improves on signature-based approaches to detecting security incidents. Instead, it flags suspected security incidents in hosts based on behavioral analysis. In our evaluation, Beehive detected malware infections and policy violations that went otherwise unnoticed by existing, state-of-the-art security tools and personal.




Can Beehive or a similar system prevent Snowden type action?










share|improve this question



















  • 36




    Simple answer: No, most certainly not. Snowden was someone who had privileged access and had the authority and reason to mass-download content (he was a sysadmin).
    – forest
    2 days ago






  • 3




    But in the training case, they model everybody according to their behavior. So, after the training, a mass download will be a behavioral change that will produce an alert signal.
    – kelalaka
    2 days ago







  • 6




    Unless mass-downloading is 1) not common and 2) it's not possible to just throttle the download.
    – forest
    2 days ago







  • 13




    Why "mass download" is even considered suspicious. there are will be some sorts of constant "mass" downloads during everyday usage, was my first thought. What is mass download? 1 MB? 500 MB ? 5 GB? 500 GB? ...
    – Croll
    2 days ago






  • 8




    @Croll If your organisation has one million files, any one person probably doesn't need to access anywhere close to that many in order to do their job (most files won't be related to their work). If somebody starts trying to download all one million over a day or two, that's suspicious. Even a small percentage of that one million could be suspicious. 1% of one million is 10,000 files. How many people working for your organisation need to access 10,000 files over the span of 48 hours to do their job? Very few (if any).
    – Anthony Grist
    2 days ago














up vote
51
down vote

favorite
8












In a seminar, one of the Authors of Beehive: Large-Scale Log Analysis for Detecting Suspicious Activity in Enterprise Networks said that this system can prevent actions like Snowden did.



From their articles' conclusions;




Beehive improves on signature-based approaches to detecting security incidents. Instead, it flags suspected security incidents in hosts based on behavioral analysis. In our evaluation, Beehive detected malware infections and policy violations that went otherwise unnoticed by existing, state-of-the-art security tools and personal.




Can Beehive or a similar system prevent Snowden type action?










share|improve this question



















  • 36




    Simple answer: No, most certainly not. Snowden was someone who had privileged access and had the authority and reason to mass-download content (he was a sysadmin).
    – forest
    2 days ago






  • 3




    But in the training case, they model everybody according to their behavior. So, after the training, a mass download will be a behavioral change that will produce an alert signal.
    – kelalaka
    2 days ago







  • 6




    Unless mass-downloading is 1) not common and 2) it's not possible to just throttle the download.
    – forest
    2 days ago







  • 13




    Why "mass download" is even considered suspicious. there are will be some sorts of constant "mass" downloads during everyday usage, was my first thought. What is mass download? 1 MB? 500 MB ? 5 GB? 500 GB? ...
    – Croll
    2 days ago






  • 8




    @Croll If your organisation has one million files, any one person probably doesn't need to access anywhere close to that many in order to do their job (most files won't be related to their work). If somebody starts trying to download all one million over a day or two, that's suspicious. Even a small percentage of that one million could be suspicious. 1% of one million is 10,000 files. How many people working for your organisation need to access 10,000 files over the span of 48 hours to do their job? Very few (if any).
    – Anthony Grist
    2 days ago












up vote
51
down vote

favorite
8









up vote
51
down vote

favorite
8






8





In a seminar, one of the Authors of Beehive: Large-Scale Log Analysis for Detecting Suspicious Activity in Enterprise Networks said that this system can prevent actions like Snowden did.



From their articles' conclusions;




Beehive improves on signature-based approaches to detecting security incidents. Instead, it flags suspected security incidents in hosts based on behavioral analysis. In our evaluation, Beehive detected malware infections and policy violations that went otherwise unnoticed by existing, state-of-the-art security tools and personal.




Can Beehive or a similar system prevent Snowden type action?










share|improve this question















In a seminar, one of the Authors of Beehive: Large-Scale Log Analysis for Detecting Suspicious Activity in Enterprise Networks said that this system can prevent actions like Snowden did.



From their articles' conclusions;




Beehive improves on signature-based approaches to detecting security incidents. Instead, it flags suspected security incidents in hosts based on behavioral analysis. In our evaluation, Beehive detected malware infections and policy violations that went otherwise unnoticed by existing, state-of-the-art security tools and personal.




Can Beehive or a similar system prevent Snowden type action?







malware antimalware corporate-policy detection incident-response






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 2 days ago









Johnny

468113




468113










asked 2 days ago









kelalaka

4511310




4511310







  • 36




    Simple answer: No, most certainly not. Snowden was someone who had privileged access and had the authority and reason to mass-download content (he was a sysadmin).
    – forest
    2 days ago






  • 3




    But in the training case, they model everybody according to their behavior. So, after the training, a mass download will be a behavioral change that will produce an alert signal.
    – kelalaka
    2 days ago







  • 6




    Unless mass-downloading is 1) not common and 2) it's not possible to just throttle the download.
    – forest
    2 days ago







  • 13




    Why "mass download" is even considered suspicious. there are will be some sorts of constant "mass" downloads during everyday usage, was my first thought. What is mass download? 1 MB? 500 MB ? 5 GB? 500 GB? ...
    – Croll
    2 days ago






  • 8




    @Croll If your organisation has one million files, any one person probably doesn't need to access anywhere close to that many in order to do their job (most files won't be related to their work). If somebody starts trying to download all one million over a day or two, that's suspicious. Even a small percentage of that one million could be suspicious. 1% of one million is 10,000 files. How many people working for your organisation need to access 10,000 files over the span of 48 hours to do their job? Very few (if any).
    – Anthony Grist
    2 days ago












  • 36




    Simple answer: No, most certainly not. Snowden was someone who had privileged access and had the authority and reason to mass-download content (he was a sysadmin).
    – forest
    2 days ago






  • 3




    But in the training case, they model everybody according to their behavior. So, after the training, a mass download will be a behavioral change that will produce an alert signal.
    – kelalaka
    2 days ago







  • 6




    Unless mass-downloading is 1) not common and 2) it's not possible to just throttle the download.
    – forest
    2 days ago







  • 13




    Why "mass download" is even considered suspicious. there are will be some sorts of constant "mass" downloads during everyday usage, was my first thought. What is mass download? 1 MB? 500 MB ? 5 GB? 500 GB? ...
    – Croll
    2 days ago






  • 8




    @Croll If your organisation has one million files, any one person probably doesn't need to access anywhere close to that many in order to do their job (most files won't be related to their work). If somebody starts trying to download all one million over a day or two, that's suspicious. Even a small percentage of that one million could be suspicious. 1% of one million is 10,000 files. How many people working for your organisation need to access 10,000 files over the span of 48 hours to do their job? Very few (if any).
    – Anthony Grist
    2 days ago







36




36




Simple answer: No, most certainly not. Snowden was someone who had privileged access and had the authority and reason to mass-download content (he was a sysadmin).
– forest
2 days ago




Simple answer: No, most certainly not. Snowden was someone who had privileged access and had the authority and reason to mass-download content (he was a sysadmin).
– forest
2 days ago




3




3




But in the training case, they model everybody according to their behavior. So, after the training, a mass download will be a behavioral change that will produce an alert signal.
– kelalaka
2 days ago





But in the training case, they model everybody according to their behavior. So, after the training, a mass download will be a behavioral change that will produce an alert signal.
– kelalaka
2 days ago





6




6




Unless mass-downloading is 1) not common and 2) it's not possible to just throttle the download.
– forest
2 days ago





Unless mass-downloading is 1) not common and 2) it's not possible to just throttle the download.
– forest
2 days ago





13




13




Why "mass download" is even considered suspicious. there are will be some sorts of constant "mass" downloads during everyday usage, was my first thought. What is mass download? 1 MB? 500 MB ? 5 GB? 500 GB? ...
– Croll
2 days ago




Why "mass download" is even considered suspicious. there are will be some sorts of constant "mass" downloads during everyday usage, was my first thought. What is mass download? 1 MB? 500 MB ? 5 GB? 500 GB? ...
– Croll
2 days ago




8




8




@Croll If your organisation has one million files, any one person probably doesn't need to access anywhere close to that many in order to do their job (most files won't be related to their work). If somebody starts trying to download all one million over a day or two, that's suspicious. Even a small percentage of that one million could be suspicious. 1% of one million is 10,000 files. How many people working for your organisation need to access 10,000 files over the span of 48 hours to do their job? Very few (if any).
– Anthony Grist
2 days ago




@Croll If your organisation has one million files, any one person probably doesn't need to access anywhere close to that many in order to do their job (most files won't be related to their work). If somebody starts trying to download all one million over a day or two, that's suspicious. Even a small percentage of that one million could be suspicious. 1% of one million is 10,000 files. How many people working for your organisation need to access 10,000 files over the span of 48 hours to do their job? Very few (if any).
– Anthony Grist
2 days ago










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
121
down vote













A backup operator will have the permission and behavioral markers of someone that moves lots of data around. Like any sysadmin where there's no dedicated backup operator in place.



Snowden was a sysadmin. He would knew all the protection protocols in place. He could just impersonate anyone, from any area, download things, impersonate the next one, and keep doing that.



If it's common knowledge that there's no bulletproof protection against a dedicated attacker, imagine a trusted internal dedicated attacker with sysadmin privileges.






share|improve this answer
















  • 149




    TL;dr: you can't protect yourself against yourself.
    – Braiam
    2 days ago






  • 1




    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – Jeff Ferland
    yesterday

















up vote
16
down vote













Anomaly detection systems like Beehive make it easier than before to dig through lots of data and detect suspicious behavior. This means that it is possible for an analyst to focus on the more relevant data, process more data in shorter time and also use more detailed input data for the analysis. This way the chance is higher than before that somebody can detect unwanted behavior.



It is claimed (and I have no reason to doubt this claim) in the Beehive paper that the system can detect more incidents than the usually used systems - but it is not claimed that the system can detect every incident or even how much of all incidents it could detect. Thus, it might be that other systems only detect 10% of all incidents and Beehive detects 20%, which is good but not really satisfactory.



Could such a system detect somebody like Snowden? This depends a lot on how much and what kind and what detail of data is collected for analysis, how strict the existing security policies are in the first place so that policy violations can be logged and how much the illegal (as seen by the NSA) activities of Snowden differed from his usual work activity. The more it differs the more likely it can be detected by anomaly detection system. But the more similar illegal and legal activities are in terms of the logged data, the less likely is that illegal activities will be reported as anomaly.



In other words: it could help to detect some Snowden type actions but it will not detect all Snowden type actions. And preventing such actions would be even more difficult, more likely is a more early detection after some harm was already done and thus limiting the impact.






share|improve this answer


















  • 2




    And the false positives... Wow, imagine you got promoted to a System Admin position and then suddenly you have federal agents show up at your door...
    – Nelson
    yesterday






  • 5




    @Nelson Federal agents will be at your door long before that if you're in the running for a sysadmin position. Get ready for looooads of profiling and interviews.
    – Lightness Races in Orbit
    yesterday

















up vote
12
down vote













Snowden's intent was data exfiltration and he was also a system admin. So, he had access to large amounts of data normal users didn't and would have a different pattern of how he interacts with the network. If Beehive was in place, it may have logged that he was doing something but anyone who has an intent of data exfiltration would've known how to bypass alerting: make your pattern of data exfiltration "normal" from the time the system started getting trained and it wouldn't be flagged as anomalous activity. Snowden could've had pattern of dumping 16GB a day to a USB thumb drive but as long as he didn't do sudden change in his techniques, Beehive wouldn't have flagged him.



I'm working on some custom ways at work to detect this kind of pattern. But, right now I don't know of anything automated that'll do a good job.






share|improve this answer








New contributor




RG1 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
























    up vote
    8
    down vote













    No it can't.



    And the quote that you pulled clearly explained why not, and how people came to claim that it could.



    What Beehive might be able to do is tell you that a Snowden-style attack has taken place. (even thoguh goin by @ThoriumBR a SNOWDEN would not have been prevented)



    What you (or that guy) claims is that it could PREVENT such an attack, which is far, far different.
    Beehive is crawling logs and (maybe, didn't read too much) combining that with some advanced analysis.
    Which means that even if your analysis-and-flagging system is running in real-time it would probably be too late.



    [Just imagine where Beehive comes in:



    Suspicious action -> security program -> log -> beehive extracts data -> beehive analysis -> flag thrown -> intervention?



    This is far too late (and it assumes that the logs are evaluated in real-time]



    Logs are for retroactive investigation, not real-time intervention.



    What you could do is produce a pseudo-log for any action, have that analysed by Beehive and only upon being greenlit the action is executed.
    The enormous overhead and noticeable delay would make that approach a really hard sell to any manager though. [also, not using logs but build in evaluating-mechanisms in your platform would be far better]






    share|improve this answer








    New contributor




    Hobbamok is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.













    • 6




      And the false positives. Job promotions will be a nightmare, as will department changes.
      – Nelson
      yesterday











    • As a sysadmin, could one simple alter the logs?
      – paulj
      yesterday










    • @paulj Not if the logs are sent to a remote server or forward-sealed, but that only applies to logs that were already generated. A sysadmin could, of course, forge any subsequent logs.
      – forest
      13 hours ago










    • Incidentally (and unrelatedly), modern file systems do have pseudo-logs, which are finalized much more quickly than something like Beehive could match
      – jpaugh
      4 hours ago











    Your Answer








    StackExchange.ready(function()
    var channelOptions =
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "162"
    ;
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
    createEditor();
    );

    else
    createEditor();

    );

    function createEditor()
    StackExchange.prepareEditor(
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    convertImagesToLinks: false,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: null,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader:
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    ,
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    );



    );













     

    draft saved


    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function ()
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fsecurity.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f197169%2fcan-beehive-detect-a-snowden-like-actor%23new-answer', 'question_page');

    );

    Post as a guest






























    4 Answers
    4






    active

    oldest

    votes








    4 Answers
    4






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes








    up vote
    121
    down vote













    A backup operator will have the permission and behavioral markers of someone that moves lots of data around. Like any sysadmin where there's no dedicated backup operator in place.



    Snowden was a sysadmin. He would knew all the protection protocols in place. He could just impersonate anyone, from any area, download things, impersonate the next one, and keep doing that.



    If it's common knowledge that there's no bulletproof protection against a dedicated attacker, imagine a trusted internal dedicated attacker with sysadmin privileges.






    share|improve this answer
















    • 149




      TL;dr: you can't protect yourself against yourself.
      – Braiam
      2 days ago






    • 1




      Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
      – Jeff Ferland
      yesterday














    up vote
    121
    down vote













    A backup operator will have the permission and behavioral markers of someone that moves lots of data around. Like any sysadmin where there's no dedicated backup operator in place.



    Snowden was a sysadmin. He would knew all the protection protocols in place. He could just impersonate anyone, from any area, download things, impersonate the next one, and keep doing that.



    If it's common knowledge that there's no bulletproof protection against a dedicated attacker, imagine a trusted internal dedicated attacker with sysadmin privileges.






    share|improve this answer
















    • 149




      TL;dr: you can't protect yourself against yourself.
      – Braiam
      2 days ago






    • 1




      Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
      – Jeff Ferland
      yesterday












    up vote
    121
    down vote










    up vote
    121
    down vote









    A backup operator will have the permission and behavioral markers of someone that moves lots of data around. Like any sysadmin where there's no dedicated backup operator in place.



    Snowden was a sysadmin. He would knew all the protection protocols in place. He could just impersonate anyone, from any area, download things, impersonate the next one, and keep doing that.



    If it's common knowledge that there's no bulletproof protection against a dedicated attacker, imagine a trusted internal dedicated attacker with sysadmin privileges.






    share|improve this answer












    A backup operator will have the permission and behavioral markers of someone that moves lots of data around. Like any sysadmin where there's no dedicated backup operator in place.



    Snowden was a sysadmin. He would knew all the protection protocols in place. He could just impersonate anyone, from any area, download things, impersonate the next one, and keep doing that.



    If it's common knowledge that there's no bulletproof protection against a dedicated attacker, imagine a trusted internal dedicated attacker with sysadmin privileges.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 2 days ago









    ThoriumBR

    19.9k54868




    19.9k54868







    • 149




      TL;dr: you can't protect yourself against yourself.
      – Braiam
      2 days ago






    • 1




      Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
      – Jeff Ferland
      yesterday












    • 149




      TL;dr: you can't protect yourself against yourself.
      – Braiam
      2 days ago






    • 1




      Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
      – Jeff Ferland
      yesterday







    149




    149




    TL;dr: you can't protect yourself against yourself.
    – Braiam
    2 days ago




    TL;dr: you can't protect yourself against yourself.
    – Braiam
    2 days ago




    1




    1




    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – Jeff Ferland
    yesterday




    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – Jeff Ferland
    yesterday












    up vote
    16
    down vote













    Anomaly detection systems like Beehive make it easier than before to dig through lots of data and detect suspicious behavior. This means that it is possible for an analyst to focus on the more relevant data, process more data in shorter time and also use more detailed input data for the analysis. This way the chance is higher than before that somebody can detect unwanted behavior.



    It is claimed (and I have no reason to doubt this claim) in the Beehive paper that the system can detect more incidents than the usually used systems - but it is not claimed that the system can detect every incident or even how much of all incidents it could detect. Thus, it might be that other systems only detect 10% of all incidents and Beehive detects 20%, which is good but not really satisfactory.



    Could such a system detect somebody like Snowden? This depends a lot on how much and what kind and what detail of data is collected for analysis, how strict the existing security policies are in the first place so that policy violations can be logged and how much the illegal (as seen by the NSA) activities of Snowden differed from his usual work activity. The more it differs the more likely it can be detected by anomaly detection system. But the more similar illegal and legal activities are in terms of the logged data, the less likely is that illegal activities will be reported as anomaly.



    In other words: it could help to detect some Snowden type actions but it will not detect all Snowden type actions. And preventing such actions would be even more difficult, more likely is a more early detection after some harm was already done and thus limiting the impact.






    share|improve this answer


















    • 2




      And the false positives... Wow, imagine you got promoted to a System Admin position and then suddenly you have federal agents show up at your door...
      – Nelson
      yesterday






    • 5




      @Nelson Federal agents will be at your door long before that if you're in the running for a sysadmin position. Get ready for looooads of profiling and interviews.
      – Lightness Races in Orbit
      yesterday














    up vote
    16
    down vote













    Anomaly detection systems like Beehive make it easier than before to dig through lots of data and detect suspicious behavior. This means that it is possible for an analyst to focus on the more relevant data, process more data in shorter time and also use more detailed input data for the analysis. This way the chance is higher than before that somebody can detect unwanted behavior.



    It is claimed (and I have no reason to doubt this claim) in the Beehive paper that the system can detect more incidents than the usually used systems - but it is not claimed that the system can detect every incident or even how much of all incidents it could detect. Thus, it might be that other systems only detect 10% of all incidents and Beehive detects 20%, which is good but not really satisfactory.



    Could such a system detect somebody like Snowden? This depends a lot on how much and what kind and what detail of data is collected for analysis, how strict the existing security policies are in the first place so that policy violations can be logged and how much the illegal (as seen by the NSA) activities of Snowden differed from his usual work activity. The more it differs the more likely it can be detected by anomaly detection system. But the more similar illegal and legal activities are in terms of the logged data, the less likely is that illegal activities will be reported as anomaly.



    In other words: it could help to detect some Snowden type actions but it will not detect all Snowden type actions. And preventing such actions would be even more difficult, more likely is a more early detection after some harm was already done and thus limiting the impact.






    share|improve this answer


















    • 2




      And the false positives... Wow, imagine you got promoted to a System Admin position and then suddenly you have federal agents show up at your door...
      – Nelson
      yesterday






    • 5




      @Nelson Federal agents will be at your door long before that if you're in the running for a sysadmin position. Get ready for looooads of profiling and interviews.
      – Lightness Races in Orbit
      yesterday












    up vote
    16
    down vote










    up vote
    16
    down vote









    Anomaly detection systems like Beehive make it easier than before to dig through lots of data and detect suspicious behavior. This means that it is possible for an analyst to focus on the more relevant data, process more data in shorter time and also use more detailed input data for the analysis. This way the chance is higher than before that somebody can detect unwanted behavior.



    It is claimed (and I have no reason to doubt this claim) in the Beehive paper that the system can detect more incidents than the usually used systems - but it is not claimed that the system can detect every incident or even how much of all incidents it could detect. Thus, it might be that other systems only detect 10% of all incidents and Beehive detects 20%, which is good but not really satisfactory.



    Could such a system detect somebody like Snowden? This depends a lot on how much and what kind and what detail of data is collected for analysis, how strict the existing security policies are in the first place so that policy violations can be logged and how much the illegal (as seen by the NSA) activities of Snowden differed from his usual work activity. The more it differs the more likely it can be detected by anomaly detection system. But the more similar illegal and legal activities are in terms of the logged data, the less likely is that illegal activities will be reported as anomaly.



    In other words: it could help to detect some Snowden type actions but it will not detect all Snowden type actions. And preventing such actions would be even more difficult, more likely is a more early detection after some harm was already done and thus limiting the impact.






    share|improve this answer














    Anomaly detection systems like Beehive make it easier than before to dig through lots of data and detect suspicious behavior. This means that it is possible for an analyst to focus on the more relevant data, process more data in shorter time and also use more detailed input data for the analysis. This way the chance is higher than before that somebody can detect unwanted behavior.



    It is claimed (and I have no reason to doubt this claim) in the Beehive paper that the system can detect more incidents than the usually used systems - but it is not claimed that the system can detect every incident or even how much of all incidents it could detect. Thus, it might be that other systems only detect 10% of all incidents and Beehive detects 20%, which is good but not really satisfactory.



    Could such a system detect somebody like Snowden? This depends a lot on how much and what kind and what detail of data is collected for analysis, how strict the existing security policies are in the first place so that policy violations can be logged and how much the illegal (as seen by the NSA) activities of Snowden differed from his usual work activity. The more it differs the more likely it can be detected by anomaly detection system. But the more similar illegal and legal activities are in terms of the logged data, the less likely is that illegal activities will be reported as anomaly.



    In other words: it could help to detect some Snowden type actions but it will not detect all Snowden type actions. And preventing such actions would be even more difficult, more likely is a more early detection after some harm was already done and thus limiting the impact.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 2 days ago

























    answered 2 days ago









    Steffen Ullrich

    110k12191256




    110k12191256







    • 2




      And the false positives... Wow, imagine you got promoted to a System Admin position and then suddenly you have federal agents show up at your door...
      – Nelson
      yesterday






    • 5




      @Nelson Federal agents will be at your door long before that if you're in the running for a sysadmin position. Get ready for looooads of profiling and interviews.
      – Lightness Races in Orbit
      yesterday












    • 2




      And the false positives... Wow, imagine you got promoted to a System Admin position and then suddenly you have federal agents show up at your door...
      – Nelson
      yesterday






    • 5




      @Nelson Federal agents will be at your door long before that if you're in the running for a sysadmin position. Get ready for looooads of profiling and interviews.
      – Lightness Races in Orbit
      yesterday







    2




    2




    And the false positives... Wow, imagine you got promoted to a System Admin position and then suddenly you have federal agents show up at your door...
    – Nelson
    yesterday




    And the false positives... Wow, imagine you got promoted to a System Admin position and then suddenly you have federal agents show up at your door...
    – Nelson
    yesterday




    5




    5




    @Nelson Federal agents will be at your door long before that if you're in the running for a sysadmin position. Get ready for looooads of profiling and interviews.
    – Lightness Races in Orbit
    yesterday




    @Nelson Federal agents will be at your door long before that if you're in the running for a sysadmin position. Get ready for looooads of profiling and interviews.
    – Lightness Races in Orbit
    yesterday










    up vote
    12
    down vote













    Snowden's intent was data exfiltration and he was also a system admin. So, he had access to large amounts of data normal users didn't and would have a different pattern of how he interacts with the network. If Beehive was in place, it may have logged that he was doing something but anyone who has an intent of data exfiltration would've known how to bypass alerting: make your pattern of data exfiltration "normal" from the time the system started getting trained and it wouldn't be flagged as anomalous activity. Snowden could've had pattern of dumping 16GB a day to a USB thumb drive but as long as he didn't do sudden change in his techniques, Beehive wouldn't have flagged him.



    I'm working on some custom ways at work to detect this kind of pattern. But, right now I don't know of anything automated that'll do a good job.






    share|improve this answer








    New contributor




    RG1 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.





















      up vote
      12
      down vote













      Snowden's intent was data exfiltration and he was also a system admin. So, he had access to large amounts of data normal users didn't and would have a different pattern of how he interacts with the network. If Beehive was in place, it may have logged that he was doing something but anyone who has an intent of data exfiltration would've known how to bypass alerting: make your pattern of data exfiltration "normal" from the time the system started getting trained and it wouldn't be flagged as anomalous activity. Snowden could've had pattern of dumping 16GB a day to a USB thumb drive but as long as he didn't do sudden change in his techniques, Beehive wouldn't have flagged him.



      I'm working on some custom ways at work to detect this kind of pattern. But, right now I don't know of anything automated that'll do a good job.






      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      RG1 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.



















        up vote
        12
        down vote










        up vote
        12
        down vote









        Snowden's intent was data exfiltration and he was also a system admin. So, he had access to large amounts of data normal users didn't and would have a different pattern of how he interacts with the network. If Beehive was in place, it may have logged that he was doing something but anyone who has an intent of data exfiltration would've known how to bypass alerting: make your pattern of data exfiltration "normal" from the time the system started getting trained and it wouldn't be flagged as anomalous activity. Snowden could've had pattern of dumping 16GB a day to a USB thumb drive but as long as he didn't do sudden change in his techniques, Beehive wouldn't have flagged him.



        I'm working on some custom ways at work to detect this kind of pattern. But, right now I don't know of anything automated that'll do a good job.






        share|improve this answer








        New contributor




        RG1 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.









        Snowden's intent was data exfiltration and he was also a system admin. So, he had access to large amounts of data normal users didn't and would have a different pattern of how he interacts with the network. If Beehive was in place, it may have logged that he was doing something but anyone who has an intent of data exfiltration would've known how to bypass alerting: make your pattern of data exfiltration "normal" from the time the system started getting trained and it wouldn't be flagged as anomalous activity. Snowden could've had pattern of dumping 16GB a day to a USB thumb drive but as long as he didn't do sudden change in his techniques, Beehive wouldn't have flagged him.



        I'm working on some custom ways at work to detect this kind of pattern. But, right now I don't know of anything automated that'll do a good job.







        share|improve this answer








        New contributor




        RG1 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.









        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer






        New contributor




        RG1 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.









        answered 2 days ago









        RG1

        1312




        1312




        New contributor




        RG1 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.





        New contributor





        RG1 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.






        RG1 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.




















            up vote
            8
            down vote













            No it can't.



            And the quote that you pulled clearly explained why not, and how people came to claim that it could.



            What Beehive might be able to do is tell you that a Snowden-style attack has taken place. (even thoguh goin by @ThoriumBR a SNOWDEN would not have been prevented)



            What you (or that guy) claims is that it could PREVENT such an attack, which is far, far different.
            Beehive is crawling logs and (maybe, didn't read too much) combining that with some advanced analysis.
            Which means that even if your analysis-and-flagging system is running in real-time it would probably be too late.



            [Just imagine where Beehive comes in:



            Suspicious action -> security program -> log -> beehive extracts data -> beehive analysis -> flag thrown -> intervention?



            This is far too late (and it assumes that the logs are evaluated in real-time]



            Logs are for retroactive investigation, not real-time intervention.



            What you could do is produce a pseudo-log for any action, have that analysed by Beehive and only upon being greenlit the action is executed.
            The enormous overhead and noticeable delay would make that approach a really hard sell to any manager though. [also, not using logs but build in evaluating-mechanisms in your platform would be far better]






            share|improve this answer








            New contributor




            Hobbamok is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.













            • 6




              And the false positives. Job promotions will be a nightmare, as will department changes.
              – Nelson
              yesterday











            • As a sysadmin, could one simple alter the logs?
              – paulj
              yesterday










            • @paulj Not if the logs are sent to a remote server or forward-sealed, but that only applies to logs that were already generated. A sysadmin could, of course, forge any subsequent logs.
              – forest
              13 hours ago










            • Incidentally (and unrelatedly), modern file systems do have pseudo-logs, which are finalized much more quickly than something like Beehive could match
              – jpaugh
              4 hours ago















            up vote
            8
            down vote













            No it can't.



            And the quote that you pulled clearly explained why not, and how people came to claim that it could.



            What Beehive might be able to do is tell you that a Snowden-style attack has taken place. (even thoguh goin by @ThoriumBR a SNOWDEN would not have been prevented)



            What you (or that guy) claims is that it could PREVENT such an attack, which is far, far different.
            Beehive is crawling logs and (maybe, didn't read too much) combining that with some advanced analysis.
            Which means that even if your analysis-and-flagging system is running in real-time it would probably be too late.



            [Just imagine where Beehive comes in:



            Suspicious action -> security program -> log -> beehive extracts data -> beehive analysis -> flag thrown -> intervention?



            This is far too late (and it assumes that the logs are evaluated in real-time]



            Logs are for retroactive investigation, not real-time intervention.



            What you could do is produce a pseudo-log for any action, have that analysed by Beehive and only upon being greenlit the action is executed.
            The enormous overhead and noticeable delay would make that approach a really hard sell to any manager though. [also, not using logs but build in evaluating-mechanisms in your platform would be far better]






            share|improve this answer








            New contributor




            Hobbamok is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.













            • 6




              And the false positives. Job promotions will be a nightmare, as will department changes.
              – Nelson
              yesterday











            • As a sysadmin, could one simple alter the logs?
              – paulj
              yesterday










            • @paulj Not if the logs are sent to a remote server or forward-sealed, but that only applies to logs that were already generated. A sysadmin could, of course, forge any subsequent logs.
              – forest
              13 hours ago










            • Incidentally (and unrelatedly), modern file systems do have pseudo-logs, which are finalized much more quickly than something like Beehive could match
              – jpaugh
              4 hours ago













            up vote
            8
            down vote










            up vote
            8
            down vote









            No it can't.



            And the quote that you pulled clearly explained why not, and how people came to claim that it could.



            What Beehive might be able to do is tell you that a Snowden-style attack has taken place. (even thoguh goin by @ThoriumBR a SNOWDEN would not have been prevented)



            What you (or that guy) claims is that it could PREVENT such an attack, which is far, far different.
            Beehive is crawling logs and (maybe, didn't read too much) combining that with some advanced analysis.
            Which means that even if your analysis-and-flagging system is running in real-time it would probably be too late.



            [Just imagine where Beehive comes in:



            Suspicious action -> security program -> log -> beehive extracts data -> beehive analysis -> flag thrown -> intervention?



            This is far too late (and it assumes that the logs are evaluated in real-time]



            Logs are for retroactive investigation, not real-time intervention.



            What you could do is produce a pseudo-log for any action, have that analysed by Beehive and only upon being greenlit the action is executed.
            The enormous overhead and noticeable delay would make that approach a really hard sell to any manager though. [also, not using logs but build in evaluating-mechanisms in your platform would be far better]






            share|improve this answer








            New contributor




            Hobbamok is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.









            No it can't.



            And the quote that you pulled clearly explained why not, and how people came to claim that it could.



            What Beehive might be able to do is tell you that a Snowden-style attack has taken place. (even thoguh goin by @ThoriumBR a SNOWDEN would not have been prevented)



            What you (or that guy) claims is that it could PREVENT such an attack, which is far, far different.
            Beehive is crawling logs and (maybe, didn't read too much) combining that with some advanced analysis.
            Which means that even if your analysis-and-flagging system is running in real-time it would probably be too late.



            [Just imagine where Beehive comes in:



            Suspicious action -> security program -> log -> beehive extracts data -> beehive analysis -> flag thrown -> intervention?



            This is far too late (and it assumes that the logs are evaluated in real-time]



            Logs are for retroactive investigation, not real-time intervention.



            What you could do is produce a pseudo-log for any action, have that analysed by Beehive and only upon being greenlit the action is executed.
            The enormous overhead and noticeable delay would make that approach a really hard sell to any manager though. [also, not using logs but build in evaluating-mechanisms in your platform would be far better]







            share|improve this answer








            New contributor




            Hobbamok is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.









            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer






            New contributor




            Hobbamok is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.









            answered 2 days ago









            Hobbamok

            1813




            1813




            New contributor




            Hobbamok is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.





            New contributor





            Hobbamok is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.






            Hobbamok is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.







            • 6




              And the false positives. Job promotions will be a nightmare, as will department changes.
              – Nelson
              yesterday











            • As a sysadmin, could one simple alter the logs?
              – paulj
              yesterday










            • @paulj Not if the logs are sent to a remote server or forward-sealed, but that only applies to logs that were already generated. A sysadmin could, of course, forge any subsequent logs.
              – forest
              13 hours ago










            • Incidentally (and unrelatedly), modern file systems do have pseudo-logs, which are finalized much more quickly than something like Beehive could match
              – jpaugh
              4 hours ago













            • 6




              And the false positives. Job promotions will be a nightmare, as will department changes.
              – Nelson
              yesterday











            • As a sysadmin, could one simple alter the logs?
              – paulj
              yesterday










            • @paulj Not if the logs are sent to a remote server or forward-sealed, but that only applies to logs that were already generated. A sysadmin could, of course, forge any subsequent logs.
              – forest
              13 hours ago










            • Incidentally (and unrelatedly), modern file systems do have pseudo-logs, which are finalized much more quickly than something like Beehive could match
              – jpaugh
              4 hours ago








            6




            6




            And the false positives. Job promotions will be a nightmare, as will department changes.
            – Nelson
            yesterday





            And the false positives. Job promotions will be a nightmare, as will department changes.
            – Nelson
            yesterday













            As a sysadmin, could one simple alter the logs?
            – paulj
            yesterday




            As a sysadmin, could one simple alter the logs?
            – paulj
            yesterday












            @paulj Not if the logs are sent to a remote server or forward-sealed, but that only applies to logs that were already generated. A sysadmin could, of course, forge any subsequent logs.
            – forest
            13 hours ago




            @paulj Not if the logs are sent to a remote server or forward-sealed, but that only applies to logs that were already generated. A sysadmin could, of course, forge any subsequent logs.
            – forest
            13 hours ago












            Incidentally (and unrelatedly), modern file systems do have pseudo-logs, which are finalized much more quickly than something like Beehive could match
            – jpaugh
            4 hours ago





            Incidentally (and unrelatedly), modern file systems do have pseudo-logs, which are finalized much more quickly than something like Beehive could match
            – jpaugh
            4 hours ago


















             

            draft saved


            draft discarded















































             


            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function ()
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fsecurity.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f197169%2fcan-beehive-detect-a-snowden-like-actor%23new-answer', 'question_page');

            );

            Post as a guest














































































            Popular posts from this blog

            Kleinkühnau

            Makov (Slowakei)

            Deutsches Schauspielhaus